Pet: Pit bull
61Partly responsible for slightly more than half of 27 reported deaths over a two-year period and some people want to extermintate the entire breed.
Pet: Pit bull
62John W. wrote:Partly responsible for slightly more than half of 27 reported deaths over a two-year period and some people want to extermintate the entire breed.
Dogs that kill people are crap.
Breeds which are more likely than others to kill people when they attack are crap.
Pet: Pit bull
63Hint wrote:John W. wrote:Partly responsible for slightly more than half of 27 reported deaths over a two-year period and some people want to extermintate the entire breed.
Dogs that kill people are crap.
Breeds which are more likely than others to kill people when they attack are crap.
So, most dog breeds have been responsbile for killing people at one time or another, so all dogs are crap by that line of logic. To me, that's crap.
Pet: Pit bull
64Based on my unanimously pleasant dealings with this breed, I've defended them elsewhere. The other night, however, my feelings changed. The owner of one of the "nice" pit bulls I know is moving cross-country and plans to visit me in Kentucky. We were discussing her visit when she added, "I'll have Rue with me--is that a problem?"
"No," I said, "Booker's great with other dogs, and I have a border collie named Darby now as well. And, of course, my cat Eddie."
"Rue loves cats," she said, "but I don't trust her around other dogs." As she said this, I pictured the powerful jaws of the pit bull locked on the neck of one of my four-legged friends. My face became flushed, and I couldn't get that image out of my head.
"We'll have to work something out," I said, "because it might seriously jeapordize our friendship if I had to shoot your dog for trying to kill one of mine."
She agreed, and we discussed various ways to quarantine the dogs and thus preseve her plans to visit. But I'm on the fence now about these pit bulls, I'm afraid.
"No," I said, "Booker's great with other dogs, and I have a border collie named Darby now as well. And, of course, my cat Eddie."
"Rue loves cats," she said, "but I don't trust her around other dogs." As she said this, I pictured the powerful jaws of the pit bull locked on the neck of one of my four-legged friends. My face became flushed, and I couldn't get that image out of my head.
"We'll have to work something out," I said, "because it might seriously jeapordize our friendship if I had to shoot your dog for trying to kill one of mine."
She agreed, and we discussed various ways to quarantine the dogs and thus preseve her plans to visit. But I'm on the fence now about these pit bulls, I'm afraid.
dontfeartheringo wrote:I need people to act like grown folks and I just ain't seeing it.
Pet: Pit bull
65John W. wrote:So, most dog breeds have been responsbile for killing people at one time or another, so all dogs are crap by that line of logic. To me, that's crap.
You don't accept that, when compared to attacks by other breeds, attacks by Pitbulls and Rottweilers on humans are more likely to result in serious injury or death?
Pet: Pit bull
66I've read varying data on this topic... don't have the time to dig up the actual studies, but for a general idea here's the Wikipedia blurb about it (not a scholarly source, but there are others who agree with me that the pit bull's bad reputation is debatable):
Of the 279 dog-attack fatalities in the USA between 1979 and 1996, dogs identified as "pit bulls" were responsible for 60 attacks—just over a fifth; followed by Rottweilers, responsible for 29 attacks (statistics from the CDC).
And also:
Some people contend that "pit bulls" are especially likely to cause fatalities when they do attack, due to their strong jaws and their tendency to clamp on to their victim when attacking. However, although American pit bull terriers are indisputably powerful dogs, there is no scientific evidence showing them to have a stronger bite than other large dog breed. In fact, when Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic (Dangerous Encounters: Bite Force, 8/18/2005) measured the bite forces of three dog breeds using a computerized bite sleeve, the American Pit Bull Terrier generated the least amount of pressure out of the 3 dogs tested, (the other two dogs were a German Shepherd Dog and a Rottweiler).
Of the 279 dog-attack fatalities in the USA between 1979 and 1996, dogs identified as "pit bulls" were responsible for 60 attacks—just over a fifth; followed by Rottweilers, responsible for 29 attacks (statistics from the CDC).
And also:
Some people contend that "pit bulls" are especially likely to cause fatalities when they do attack, due to their strong jaws and their tendency to clamp on to their victim when attacking. However, although American pit bull terriers are indisputably powerful dogs, there is no scientific evidence showing them to have a stronger bite than other large dog breed. In fact, when Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic (Dangerous Encounters: Bite Force, 8/18/2005) measured the bite forces of three dog breeds using a computerized bite sleeve, the American Pit Bull Terrier generated the least amount of pressure out of the 3 dogs tested, (the other two dogs were a German Shepherd Dog and a Rottweiler).
Pet: Pit bull
67All of the pit bulls (or American Staffordshire Terriers, as the breed is sometimes called) I have met have been very sweet. But even with these, the owners need to make sure it doesn't kill another dog.
Also, a lot of kennels, obedience schools, and doggy day cares will not allow pit bulls and rottweilers in their facilities. These are dog people, and despite the pit bull owners who insist they are safe, they would rather not risk having everyone else's dog killed...
While it is definately possible for pit bulls to be nice and social dogs, this is not their default behavior. So if someone is lazy in training and socializing the dog, it is bred to be an aggressive fighting dog. So it is not necessarily the case that people train it to be aggressive. The reality is, they have to train it to be sweet, or it will be aggressive. Seeing as how the pounds are full of dogs that people put no effort or work into, I am dubious of all pit bulls and rottweilers until I know the owner has trained them properly. Even then, they have done some weird shit that scares the hell out of me.
A golden retriever, on the other hand, will be a sweet dog regardless of training or socialization (but of course, these are still good practices).
If you look at the history of dogs and dog breeding, they were the first domestic animals. People bred them for various tasks, and these working behaviors are genetic traits that can be overcome, but they are the default behaviors of the animal, without having to train them. Pit bulls were bred as fighting dogs, and this nature can be overcome, but by default, they are aggressive.
A similar example of this is -- you don't have to train a lab or golden retriever to fetch. They do it automatically. A chihuahua, on the other hand, needs to be taught how to do this, and even then, it may just decide to keep whatever you threw at it. It was not bred as a retrieving dog. It was bred to be a companion, a pre-electric heating pad, and a source of food.
Also, a lot of kennels, obedience schools, and doggy day cares will not allow pit bulls and rottweilers in their facilities. These are dog people, and despite the pit bull owners who insist they are safe, they would rather not risk having everyone else's dog killed...
While it is definately possible for pit bulls to be nice and social dogs, this is not their default behavior. So if someone is lazy in training and socializing the dog, it is bred to be an aggressive fighting dog. So it is not necessarily the case that people train it to be aggressive. The reality is, they have to train it to be sweet, or it will be aggressive. Seeing as how the pounds are full of dogs that people put no effort or work into, I am dubious of all pit bulls and rottweilers until I know the owner has trained them properly. Even then, they have done some weird shit that scares the hell out of me.
A golden retriever, on the other hand, will be a sweet dog regardless of training or socialization (but of course, these are still good practices).
If you look at the history of dogs and dog breeding, they were the first domestic animals. People bred them for various tasks, and these working behaviors are genetic traits that can be overcome, but they are the default behaviors of the animal, without having to train them. Pit bulls were bred as fighting dogs, and this nature can be overcome, but by default, they are aggressive.
A similar example of this is -- you don't have to train a lab or golden retriever to fetch. They do it automatically. A chihuahua, on the other hand, needs to be taught how to do this, and even then, it may just decide to keep whatever you threw at it. It was not bred as a retrieving dog. It was bred to be a companion, a pre-electric heating pad, and a source of food.
Pet: Pit bull
68John W. wrote:I've read varying data on this topic... don't have the time to dig up the actual studies, but for a general idea here's the Wikipedia blurb about it (not a scholarly source, but there are others who agree with me that the pit bull's bad reputation is debatable):
Of the 279 dog-attack fatalities in the USA between 1979 and 1996, dogs identified as "pit bulls" were responsible for 60 attacks—just over a fifth; followed by Rottweilers, responsible for 29 attacks (statistics from the CDC).
There are over 150 breeds of dogs and many more mutts (or mongrels, as some may say). So 1/5 of the attacks (20%) by pit bulls is huge. Then, let's consider the fact that they are not even in the top 50 of most popular breeds. Rottweilers are somewhere in the top 40. So this is actually a hugely disproportionate amount of fatalities associated with these dogs.
Even though I have met some nice pit bulls, I would support a ban or extinction of the breed. They were bred as fighting dogs, which is neither good for the dog or for people. Their working behaviors are based around killing. They are good looking dogs, but why the hell would you get a dog with instincts to kill, and then try to train and socialize it not to?
Remember, dogs are not people, and so much more of their behavior is instinct, and not conciousness. Dogs are bred to have these working behaviors.
I used to go running by some house that had pit bulls. They had a sign on their fence that read "Warning! Dangerous Dogs", and of course, they left their garage door and fence open on several occasions. One time, the dog was charging at me, and almost got into the road, but the owner finally noticed and called it off.
This is why they should not exist. Lazy assholes like this. This is almost akin to firing a gun randomly in the air, or having a pet cobra that you let out into the yard. Shit, I would prefer the cobra to the pit bull any day. I can outrun a cobra, but a pit bull could easily kill me.
Pet: Pit bull
69It is established that pit bulls are more aggressive towards other animals. You don't let your pet rabbit run around the house if you have a cat, right?
From a pretty interesting site about pit bull myths:
Unfortunately, a large amount of attention has been brought to the fact that the Pit Bull was originally created for fighting other dogs in the pit. Since the breed was selectively bred for and excelled at this task, there is a common assumption that fighting must be all for which the breed is good. The truth of the matter is that the Pit Bull is one of the most versatile of canines, capable of excelling at just about any task his owner asks him to complete. This breed is routinely used for: obedience trialing, conformation showing, weight pull, Schutzhund (a German sport which requires dogs to perform in obedience, tracking and protection phases of a competition), agility, and have even been known to participate in herding trials, search and rescue work, and a variety of other tasks including police and armed services work. But fanciers will argue that the task this breed performs best of all is that of beloved companion.
And also from an interesting New Yorker article:
A Georgia-based group called the American Temperament Test Society has put twenty-five thousand dogs through a ten-part standardized drill designed to assess a dog’s stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness in the company of people. A handler takes a dog on a six-foot lead and judges its reaction to stimuli such as gunshots, an umbrella opening, and a weirdly dressed stranger approaching in a threatening way. Eighty-four per cent of the pit bulls that have been given the test have passed, which ranks pit bulls ahead of beagles, Airedales, bearded collies, and all but one variety of dachshund. “We have tested somewhere around a thousand pit-bull-type dogs,” Carl Herkstroeter, the president of the A.T.T.S., says. “I’ve tested half of them. And of the number I’ve tested I have disqualified one pit bull because of aggressive tendencies. They have done extremely well. They have a good temperament. They are very good with children.” It can even be argued that the same traits that make the pit bull so aggressive toward other dogs are what make it so nice to humans. “There are a lot of pit bulls these days who are licensed therapy dogs,” the writer Vicki Hearne points out. “Their stability and resoluteness make them excellent for work with people who might not like a more bouncy, flibbertigibbet sort of dog. When pit bulls set out to provide comfort, they are as resolute as they are when they fight, but what they are resolute about is being gentle. And, because they are fearless, they can be gentle with anybody.”
From the same article:
Then which are the pit bulls that get into trouble? “The ones that the legislation is geared toward have aggressive tendencies that are either bred in by the breeder, trained in by the trainer, or reinforced in by the owner,” Herkstroeter says. A mean pit bull is a dog that has been turned mean, by selective breeding, by being cross-bred with a bigger, human-aggressive breed like German shepherds or Rottweilers, or by being conditioned in such a way that it begins to express hostility to human beings. A pit bull is dangerous to people, then, not to the extent that it expresses its essential pit bullness but to the extent that it deviates from it. A pit-bull ban is a generalization about a generalization about a trait that is not, in fact, general. That’s a category problem.
That dog chasing you could easily have been a German Shepherd, and it could've done lots of damage. Yet no one is talking about exterminating German Shepherds.
From a pretty interesting site about pit bull myths:
Unfortunately, a large amount of attention has been brought to the fact that the Pit Bull was originally created for fighting other dogs in the pit. Since the breed was selectively bred for and excelled at this task, there is a common assumption that fighting must be all for which the breed is good. The truth of the matter is that the Pit Bull is one of the most versatile of canines, capable of excelling at just about any task his owner asks him to complete. This breed is routinely used for: obedience trialing, conformation showing, weight pull, Schutzhund (a German sport which requires dogs to perform in obedience, tracking and protection phases of a competition), agility, and have even been known to participate in herding trials, search and rescue work, and a variety of other tasks including police and armed services work. But fanciers will argue that the task this breed performs best of all is that of beloved companion.
And also from an interesting New Yorker article:
A Georgia-based group called the American Temperament Test Society has put twenty-five thousand dogs through a ten-part standardized drill designed to assess a dog’s stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness in the company of people. A handler takes a dog on a six-foot lead and judges its reaction to stimuli such as gunshots, an umbrella opening, and a weirdly dressed stranger approaching in a threatening way. Eighty-four per cent of the pit bulls that have been given the test have passed, which ranks pit bulls ahead of beagles, Airedales, bearded collies, and all but one variety of dachshund. “We have tested somewhere around a thousand pit-bull-type dogs,” Carl Herkstroeter, the president of the A.T.T.S., says. “I’ve tested half of them. And of the number I’ve tested I have disqualified one pit bull because of aggressive tendencies. They have done extremely well. They have a good temperament. They are very good with children.” It can even be argued that the same traits that make the pit bull so aggressive toward other dogs are what make it so nice to humans. “There are a lot of pit bulls these days who are licensed therapy dogs,” the writer Vicki Hearne points out. “Their stability and resoluteness make them excellent for work with people who might not like a more bouncy, flibbertigibbet sort of dog. When pit bulls set out to provide comfort, they are as resolute as they are when they fight, but what they are resolute about is being gentle. And, because they are fearless, they can be gentle with anybody.”
From the same article:
Then which are the pit bulls that get into trouble? “The ones that the legislation is geared toward have aggressive tendencies that are either bred in by the breeder, trained in by the trainer, or reinforced in by the owner,” Herkstroeter says. A mean pit bull is a dog that has been turned mean, by selective breeding, by being cross-bred with a bigger, human-aggressive breed like German shepherds or Rottweilers, or by being conditioned in such a way that it begins to express hostility to human beings. A pit bull is dangerous to people, then, not to the extent that it expresses its essential pit bullness but to the extent that it deviates from it. A pit-bull ban is a generalization about a generalization about a trait that is not, in fact, general. That’s a category problem.
That dog chasing you could easily have been a German Shepherd, and it could've done lots of damage. Yet no one is talking about exterminating German Shepherds.
Last edited by John W_Archive on Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pet: Pit bull
70Tom wrote:I really dislike just about every dog out there- I think there has been one that I genuinely didn't mind having around me.
But, I have to give a qualified not crap to pit bulls. Not because i like them or think that every jerkoff who has one should. I assume that they would be an excellent guard dog, right? If I got some shit that I don't want people messing with, Pit Bull is the way to go.
Family with 3 kids- pit bull as a family pet? I hope he takes you out first pal.
Well, there's a good chance the pit bull would take out the child. There was the case in SF 2 years ago where this woman locked her kid in the basement while the pit bull was in heat (and had the run of the house!). The kid got out of the basement and the pit bull killed the kid. The kid who lived in the house!
Let me know when a chihuahua kills someone's kid...