I didn't read any of this.
However, I love me some Spiritualized, Spaceman 3, Spectrum, all of it. Thank you, drug-soaked Englishmen, for your wonderful music.
Band: Spiritualized
62yut wrote:
You don't know Magma at all. If you don't mention Coltrane, Stravinsky, or Orff, it is clear you know very little about them at all...
Gong? Are you serious? Have you actually heard either band, or are you just looking this stuff up on Gnosis and Progressiverockarchives?
I would never besmirch Coltrane, Stravinsky, or Orff by mentioning them (pause - breath - pause) in the same breath as Magma.
Especially not Coltrane.
Basically you just appear to be engaging in a bunch of pseudo-musicological one-upmanship, snobbery, and just general childishness here. I mean your analysis of "Ladies and Gentlemen..." is really just a bunch of snide remarks which even includes three instances of the word "fart". Nice. Do you write for the Gramophone in your spare time? There are some real gems in there:
yut wrote:I don't know how discussion boards are run in England, but on this side of the pond, we discuss things on them.
A stale fart on a foggy night...
farting bagpipes?
Broken Heart -- more like "stinky fart".
I guess discuss and slag off are pretty much the same thing on your side of the pond. I really like how you use words like trite, juvenile, and kindergarten to describe their music before you rhyme "Broken Heart" with "stinky fart". That was quality.
Anyway, just to be fair, I threw the above pictured Magma record on the turntable and gave it another listen through to see if I had been wrong about it. My overall impression is meandering sub-standard prog rock with some classical, free jazz, and operatic pretensions sung in a language that NO ONE can understand. It's not bad, but it's not brilliant either. Sorry I couldn't work any scatological euphemisms into my review there.
Anyway, after your Spiritualized review, I'd love to see your analysis of Big Black or Slint or whatever band it was that brought you to this forum in the first place.
Oh, and...
yut wrote:By the way, soul does enter in to the equation. They are huge fans of Booker T. and the MG's, and if you have ever seen them live, it is obvious that their stage mannerism is more "soul" than progressive rock.
Yes. Of course. Being huge fans of Booker T. and the MG's instantly makes your own music soulful, Booker T. and the MG's is the first band I think of when I think "soul", and stage mannerism is of course the most important part of "soul".
Really, you're quite astute.
Band: Spiritualized
64sleepkid wrote:
I would never besmirch Coltrane, Stravinsky, or Orff by mentioning them (pause - breath - pause) in the same breath as Magma.
Especially not Coltrane.
Vander doesn't think he is as good as Coltrane, and there has never been any indication of this. These are his influences. By the way, when Modern Drummer interviews the turd-brain from Spiritualized, please let me know. For some reason, I don't think this will ever happen.
sleepkid wrote:Basically you just appear to be engaging in a bunch of pseudo-musicological one-upmanship, snobbery, and just general childishness here. I mean your analysis of "Ladies and Gentlemen..." is really just a bunch of snide remarks which even includes three instances of the word "fart". Nice. Do you write for the Gramophone in your spare time?
There is just no substance or depth to Spiritualized. These are standard length pop songs with "gee I've heard this one before" riffs all over the place. The only innovation is the over-application of effects to make the music somewhat interesting. They are like Radiohead, and their CD was played in between bands at Radiohead shows.
sleepkid wrote:yut wrote:I don't know how discussion boards are run in England, but on this side of the pond, we discuss things on them.
A stale fart on a foggy night...
farting bagpipes?
Broken Heart -- more like "stinky fart".
I guess discuss and slag off are pretty much the same thing on your side of the pond. I really like how you use words like trite, juvenile, and kindergarten to describe their music before you rhyme "Broken Heart" with "stinky fart". That was quality.
I'll never tell anyone to shut up on an online forum... Or smugly say "Thanks, you've made your point. Good day, time for tea" or whatever. These are just words...
sleepkid wrote:Anyway, just to be fair, I threw the above pictured Magma record on the turntable and gave it another listen through to see if I had been wrong about it. My overall impression is meandering sub-standard prog rock with some classical, free jazz, and operatic pretensions sung in a language that NO ONE can understand. It's not bad, but it's not brilliant either. Sorry I couldn't work any scatological euphemisms into my review there.
I am happy that you do not like Magma. Given the shallow sort of music you listen to, that has little use of any musical parameters, I am OK with the fact that you do not appreciate Magma.
This is like someone who eats at McDonald's everyday who doesn't get why Cabillaud aux Courgettes is delicious... In one respect, it's a matter of tase. In another way, it's the lack of cultivating taste. I respect your right to have a taste for unintersting music that is limited by the constraints of a well-established genre of music.
sleepkid wrote:Anyway, after your Spiritualized review, I'd love to see your analysis of Big Black or Slint or whatever band it was that brought you to this forum in the first place.
So you think Spiritualized are as good as Big Black or Slint? Hardly. At least Big Black and Slint had some sort of creativity and imagination, beyond hooking up a bunch of effects in the studio and playing trite chord progressions. I mean, that first song IS Pachelbel's Canon in D Major, which is a piece that is often played by 5th or 6th grade orchestras (what you would call 1st form). Well, it's not even that. It's just one layer of the canon... So it's sub-3rd grade musicianship, and unoriginal.
I don't think Big Black or Slint were the best musicians on the planet, but they did create something unique that influenced a lot of people, instead of the other way around (like Spiritualized). They are takers -- they take from music, and give little back. There is no innovation here. That's fine. It's pop music for teenagers, and I don't expect more than that.
I think the Hosemobile's "What can and can't go on" is my favorite Albini recorded thing (he did about half of it). Warning -- Mahavishnu influence and more than 3 chords per song.
sleepkid wrote:Yes. Of course. Being huge fans of Booker T. and the MG's instantly makes your own music soulful, Booker T. and the MG's is the first band I think of when I think "soul", and stage mannerism is of course the most important part of "soul".
Well, that and pretty much a large chunk of their work from 77 and around there.... after Oldfield ripped off Tubular Bells and used it for the Exorcist, they got tired of people saying they wrote horror film music. So they became even more soulful... But MDK is full of soul... Wurdah Itah even more so. 1001 Degrees Centigrades (which is very good) is not that soulful, but very jazzy.
They don't tack a cornball jazz song on the end of their record to say "hey kids, we're down with jazz. We have class". This is a joke. They fully integrate disperate genres of music into a musical Frankenstein...
Where will Spiritualized be in 40 years? They will most likely be pensioners and state supported junkies. I guess we just differ. I like the musicians who can compose and peform with virtuosity. You like the hipsters that do a ton of drugs and sling out 3 chord wonders... Nothing wrong with that, but lets not dress it up as something grander than it is. It's pop music, regardless of how cool their hairstyles are.
Band: Spiritualized
65cjh wrote:(An aside: Magma is the favourite band of the British snooker player Steve 'Interesting' Davis)
Wonderful.
Band: Spiritualized
66Wow Yut. You really are a troll of the highest order aren't you? First grade WUM all the way.
Yes. Because this is the standard by which you should judge yourself as a drummer. If Modern Drummer doesn't fawn over you, then you should just quit. I think this is why we don't hear much from Mac McNeilly anymore. Not enough Modern Drummer exposure. All drummers are judged on the Modern Drummer scale and since Ringo Starr has appeared in Modern Drummer more times than Christian Vander, then Ringo Starr is by logical extension, a better drummer than Christian Vander, Elvin Jones, Damon Che, Rey Washam, Arthur Johnson, etc. etc. I believe that this Modern Drummer rating system is commonly referred to as either the "Bruford" scale or the "Peart" scale. Typical conversations after leaving concerts go:
"Good drummer. He held them together really well, and did some interesting things with his fills."
"Yeah, but on the Peart MD exposure scale, he's a 0 man! He's not even in Drum Magazine, and he didn't jam in 7 at all during the show."
"Oh, well fuck him then!"
First of all, let me qualify something. I'm not a Magma fan, but I also do not hate Magma. I started out as a drummer (my favourite drummers when learning were Elvin Jones and Stewart Copeland) and I have enormous respect for Christian Vander's playing and musicianship, and really all the Magma musicians, but that doesn't mean that Magma's music isn't sometimes ridiculously pompous, laughably over mystical, and at times unneccesarily screechy. You said something like "where will Spiritualized be in 40 years?", but really, now, 38 years on, where is Magma? One of the more obscure bands in the prog rock family. Not as well remembered or critically acclaimed as bands such as King Crimson, Yes, ELP, Genesis, etc. (All commercial sell outs, I'm sure.) In fact, I'm not even sure if Magma is as well remembered as Gentle Giant, or Camel... but I'm just basing this on the four or five years I spent working in used record stores as an undergrad, and how often I got requests for Magma vs. requests for Van Der Graaf Generator.
See, now here you're just being a cunt. Perhaps you should have taken a clue when I took a picture of the Magma record and threw it on the turntable, or when I mentioned Mahavishnu Orchestra and Gong, or drew comparisons with Popol Vuh and Amon Duul. However, picking up on subtleties, or understanding the irony of using the word "fart" to describe a band you've just accused of being juvenile, doesn't seem to be your strong suit. You have no idea what I listen to. Let me just say that I am very passionate about music and have broad tastes ranging from Biz Markie to Paganini to Mingus to Dick Hyman to Undisputed Truth to Nels Cline to Elmore James to Unsane to whatever. It's all in my collection. Including 3 records by Spiritualized and 3 by Magma! Incredible! (the other two Magma albums are Kobaia and Mekanik Destruktiv Kommandoh if you must know.) I have no idea how many records I own now, but one or two of them get slapped on the turntable everyday. Right now it's fIREHOSE's From Ohio. (Yeah, Fuck George Hurley! I bet he's never been in Modern Drummer. And has Mike Watt been in Bass Player Magazine? Probably not enough. I'm going to have to throw this record out. It gets a Bruford Factor of -4... George Hurley indeed...)
Anyway, getting back to the original crux of this discussion. Spiritualized, a rock-n-roll group. You seem to do a lot of complaining about them only using three chords and being "pop", so I guess you don't listen to the Beatles, Kinks, etc. And you try and avoid anything that's done in 4/4? And because they reference Pachabel's Canon in D minor it's a sin, but when Magma might reference a Coltrane or Coleman phrase in their jam it's a tribute? And do you not enjoy Pachabel's Canon in D minor? Is it that you must absolutely not tread where others have gone before and therefore Jesus Lizard is rubbish because we already had Scratch Acid? Guided by Voices are crap because they write pop songs and we had music in Britain in the 70's? Sonic Youth are crap because we had Swell Maps, Godz, and John Cage? We should not have Magma because we already had Bitches Brew?
Sorry, even that is getting a little out of focus. Let's focus. Here's the one part of this post that I really want your response to:
You keep saying that Spiritualized is a "pop" group. So is pop music a bad thing? You have no "pop" music in your collection? You only listen to esoteric intellectual music, and have no time for the simpler forms of music? If this is so, then we can conclude the argument.
However, if you do have any "pop" music in your collection, I would like you to trot that out, and then draw your comparisons of why you think that particular "pop" group has value and Spiritualized is rubbish.
Because really, bringing out Magma in comparison to Spiritualized is just effete musical snobbery. The two bands have nothing to do with each other. It's like comparing Apples and Oranges. Instead point to a band who are operating in the "pop" rock genre that you think are doing what Spiritualized should be doing.
Despite your use of such interesting words as "turd-brain" and your generally condescending and presumptuous attitude here, I really am trying to have this conversation with you.
So let me make these statements to give it some perspective:
I appreciate Magma.
I enjoy Spiritualized.
(and I get down to Jimmy Castor, but that's a whole different thread.)
So what I am saying here, is that I am not trying to analyze Spiritualized's musicianship or even their originality. But as a "pop" rock group, they do what they do very well. Please compare them to other contemporary "pop" rock groups and respond.
(Also, I will agree that "Ladies and Gentlemen..." is not their best album. It's not my favourite, which would either be "Laser Guided Melodies" or "Pure Phase", but no need to run out and buy them.)
yut wrote:By the way, when Modern Drummer interviews the turd-brain from Spiritualized, please let me know.
Yes. Because this is the standard by which you should judge yourself as a drummer. If Modern Drummer doesn't fawn over you, then you should just quit. I think this is why we don't hear much from Mac McNeilly anymore. Not enough Modern Drummer exposure. All drummers are judged on the Modern Drummer scale and since Ringo Starr has appeared in Modern Drummer more times than Christian Vander, then Ringo Starr is by logical extension, a better drummer than Christian Vander, Elvin Jones, Damon Che, Rey Washam, Arthur Johnson, etc. etc. I believe that this Modern Drummer rating system is commonly referred to as either the "Bruford" scale or the "Peart" scale. Typical conversations after leaving concerts go:
"Good drummer. He held them together really well, and did some interesting things with his fills."
"Yeah, but on the Peart MD exposure scale, he's a 0 man! He's not even in Drum Magazine, and he didn't jam in 7 at all during the show."
"Oh, well fuck him then!"
yut wrote:I am happy that you do not like Magma.
First of all, let me qualify something. I'm not a Magma fan, but I also do not hate Magma. I started out as a drummer (my favourite drummers when learning were Elvin Jones and Stewart Copeland) and I have enormous respect for Christian Vander's playing and musicianship, and really all the Magma musicians, but that doesn't mean that Magma's music isn't sometimes ridiculously pompous, laughably over mystical, and at times unneccesarily screechy. You said something like "where will Spiritualized be in 40 years?", but really, now, 38 years on, where is Magma? One of the more obscure bands in the prog rock family. Not as well remembered or critically acclaimed as bands such as King Crimson, Yes, ELP, Genesis, etc. (All commercial sell outs, I'm sure.) In fact, I'm not even sure if Magma is as well remembered as Gentle Giant, or Camel... but I'm just basing this on the four or five years I spent working in used record stores as an undergrad, and how often I got requests for Magma vs. requests for Van Der Graaf Generator.
yut wrote:Given the shallow sort of music you listen to, that has little use of any musical parameters, I am OK with the fact that you do not appreciate Magma.
See, now here you're just being a cunt. Perhaps you should have taken a clue when I took a picture of the Magma record and threw it on the turntable, or when I mentioned Mahavishnu Orchestra and Gong, or drew comparisons with Popol Vuh and Amon Duul. However, picking up on subtleties, or understanding the irony of using the word "fart" to describe a band you've just accused of being juvenile, doesn't seem to be your strong suit. You have no idea what I listen to. Let me just say that I am very passionate about music and have broad tastes ranging from Biz Markie to Paganini to Mingus to Dick Hyman to Undisputed Truth to Nels Cline to Elmore James to Unsane to whatever. It's all in my collection. Including 3 records by Spiritualized and 3 by Magma! Incredible! (the other two Magma albums are Kobaia and Mekanik Destruktiv Kommandoh if you must know.) I have no idea how many records I own now, but one or two of them get slapped on the turntable everyday. Right now it's fIREHOSE's From Ohio. (Yeah, Fuck George Hurley! I bet he's never been in Modern Drummer. And has Mike Watt been in Bass Player Magazine? Probably not enough. I'm going to have to throw this record out. It gets a Bruford Factor of -4... George Hurley indeed...)
Anyway, getting back to the original crux of this discussion. Spiritualized, a rock-n-roll group. You seem to do a lot of complaining about them only using three chords and being "pop", so I guess you don't listen to the Beatles, Kinks, etc. And you try and avoid anything that's done in 4/4? And because they reference Pachabel's Canon in D minor it's a sin, but when Magma might reference a Coltrane or Coleman phrase in their jam it's a tribute? And do you not enjoy Pachabel's Canon in D minor? Is it that you must absolutely not tread where others have gone before and therefore Jesus Lizard is rubbish because we already had Scratch Acid? Guided by Voices are crap because they write pop songs and we had music in Britain in the 70's? Sonic Youth are crap because we had Swell Maps, Godz, and John Cage? We should not have Magma because we already had Bitches Brew?
Sorry, even that is getting a little out of focus. Let's focus. Here's the one part of this post that I really want your response to:
You keep saying that Spiritualized is a "pop" group. So is pop music a bad thing? You have no "pop" music in your collection? You only listen to esoteric intellectual music, and have no time for the simpler forms of music? If this is so, then we can conclude the argument.
However, if you do have any "pop" music in your collection, I would like you to trot that out, and then draw your comparisons of why you think that particular "pop" group has value and Spiritualized is rubbish.
Because really, bringing out Magma in comparison to Spiritualized is just effete musical snobbery. The two bands have nothing to do with each other. It's like comparing Apples and Oranges. Instead point to a band who are operating in the "pop" rock genre that you think are doing what Spiritualized should be doing.
Despite your use of such interesting words as "turd-brain" and your generally condescending and presumptuous attitude here, I really am trying to have this conversation with you.
So let me make these statements to give it some perspective:
I appreciate Magma.
I enjoy Spiritualized.
(and I get down to Jimmy Castor, but that's a whole different thread.)
So what I am saying here, is that I am not trying to analyze Spiritualized's musicianship or even their originality. But as a "pop" rock group, they do what they do very well. Please compare them to other contemporary "pop" rock groups and respond.
(Also, I will agree that "Ladies and Gentlemen..." is not their best album. It's not my favourite, which would either be "Laser Guided Melodies" or "Pure Phase", but no need to run out and buy them.)
Band: Spiritualized
67not crap and no waffles but i haven't heard amazing grace so i can't comment on that.
laser guided melodies
pure phase
ladies and gentleman
all not crap.
i don't mind the "oh lord" stuff at all; much of it is quite beautiful and sad at the same time. i remember him saying that he wanted to convey a certain feeling with the "gospel" aspect to the music. most of the lyrics seem to be about wanting what you don't or can't have, so invoking the "lord" is perfect, since there probably isn't one.
another aspect to their stuff i always liked was the packaging. from the glow-in-the-dark version of "pure phase," to the 12" for "smile" (which looked conspicuously like a bikini line), to the 12x3"CD with each disc individually wrapped like a prescription pill, complete with "dosage" instructions. i still think the latter is brilliant.
i guess it wasn't all about the music for me, but i liked the music too, still do.
may friend is seeing them on their three show "acoustic mainline" tour here in the states. i'm a bit jealous.
laser guided melodies
pure phase
ladies and gentleman
all not crap.
i don't mind the "oh lord" stuff at all; much of it is quite beautiful and sad at the same time. i remember him saying that he wanted to convey a certain feeling with the "gospel" aspect to the music. most of the lyrics seem to be about wanting what you don't or can't have, so invoking the "lord" is perfect, since there probably isn't one.
another aspect to their stuff i always liked was the packaging. from the glow-in-the-dark version of "pure phase," to the 12" for "smile" (which looked conspicuously like a bikini line), to the 12x3"CD with each disc individually wrapped like a prescription pill, complete with "dosage" instructions. i still think the latter is brilliant.
i guess it wasn't all about the music for me, but i liked the music too, still do.
may friend is seeing them on their three show "acoustic mainline" tour here in the states. i'm a bit jealous.
To me Steve wrote:I'm curious why[...] you wouldn't just fuck off instead. Let's hear your record, cocksocket.
Band: Spiritualized
68not crap with a lot of waffles. I really like the first three records a lot. after that it's pretty mixed. some of the lyrics are pretty fuckin' bad. I saw them play in October of 95 and it was one of the most fun shows I've ever attended.
if you're looking for something original about them it's going to be in their intention and not in their chord progressions or use of rhythm. I think PJ Harvey, Belle & Sebastian, Tom Waits, Nick Cave, or Cat Power pretty much do the same thing.
if you're looking for something original about them it's going to be in their intention and not in their chord progressions or use of rhythm. I think PJ Harvey, Belle & Sebastian, Tom Waits, Nick Cave, or Cat Power pretty much do the same thing.
Band: Spiritualized
69NC
I'm not a huge fan but I respect what they are attempting to do.
I could probably fill up a CD with songs I really do like from them.
Someone told me we reminded them of Spiritualized after our show last week, that's the best one I've gotten in awhile. It's usually 'Hey you guys remind me of the Soup Dragons' or some shit. Spiritualized I can live with.
I'm not a huge fan but I respect what they are attempting to do.
I could probably fill up a CD with songs I really do like from them.
Someone told me we reminded them of Spiritualized after our show last week, that's the best one I've gotten in awhile. It's usually 'Hey you guys remind me of the Soup Dragons' or some shit. Spiritualized I can live with.
Rick Reuben wrote:Marsupialized reminds me of freedom
Band: Spiritualized
70not crap. but the new record is pretty much a snoozer. the 'harmony' tracks are pretty nice though. he could definitely make an amazing ambient record.