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The record-collector trivia recital re: Peter Hammill was really clever, though; really very clever.

Thanks. To be fair, Lydon admits the influence. To be unfair, the Sex Pistols probably made much more money off that Bullocks album than Hammill did in his whole career (I could be wrong, though... PH is very prolific).

The point here is that I just think it's funny that someone makes a parody of an arrogant rock star, dumbs down the music significantly (the out of tune guitars and simple songs with crappy solos is intentional) and a "great" and "influential" punk band uses this sound and gets so much credit for it...

I don't mean to dog the Sex Pistols. I just gave an example that if someone is enamoured by the Pistols, they probably won't like Zappa. There's a fair amount of punk rockers on this board, and I feel voting Zappa as crap just because you don't like jazz, modern composition, or rock songs with lavish guitar solos isn't fair.

I do like punk. I love Bad Brains. I was a member of Fugazi. These bands are talented and really write some great material... You should have heard us in 1993... We ROCKED Sudbury and Perry Sound, baby!

If you don't like "excesses", that's fine... The airwaves are jam packed with simple tunes that we can all hum along with in peace and harmony. Let's not poop on Zappa because he worked hard.... I think it's this sort of attitude that has ruined the music industry. Why would anyone try hard to do anything great, when it will just be deemed "excessive" and "self-indulgent"... Most people want bar chords and 4/4 time.

Have you heard the most popular song in the world right now? Thanks!

Not perfect but definitely Not Crap. I bought most of his albums over the space of a couple of years in the early 90s and although his 80s output is mostly no better than Quite Crap, the Mothers records are great and Absolutely Free is essential. once again: Not Crap

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:

placeholder wrote:I guess I do find some songs with "3 bar chords" fascinating, and I find it really funny that you seem to be dismissing a lot of music as unintelligent

The music industry loves you for this. You're their best customer. They like the 3 chord bands too...

Yes. The Sex Pistols are my favorite band because MTV told me that they invented punk. I am incapable of forming my own conclusions about what constitutes worthwhile music, because my taste has been spoonfed to me by "the man". Further, I don't even care about the Pistols' music at all. When I said I considered them a fine rock band, I meant that they're my all-time favorite band, particularly because they excelled at using heroin and committing murder.

I've revealed nothing about my musical taste in this thread other than the fact that I think the Sex Pistols were a decent band, and that I don't care for any of the Zappa stuff I've heard. Somehow, this has been turned into my thinking the Pistols are "holy" and my taste consists of whatever radio hands to me. I don't follow your line of reasoning, but it is very funny. I have to give you this, though:

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:Ian Curtis

You called it. Joy Division are, in fact, my very favorite band. No joke. They have been for years and years. I'll give you that.

In any case, I don't care about debating Zappa's "worth" with you, a Zappa fan, because that's obviously subjective, as any music's "worth" is. It is deeply irritating that you seem to categorize music listeners as either people who "get" Zappa (and presumably other "progressive" stuff), or idiots with base tastes in music. There is no grey area, and you cannot have it both ways. That is an asinine assertion to make, but keep making it; your brand of elitism is the funniest sort. It cracks me up that you've again told me that I don't "get" Zappa. I "get" Zappa. I "don't like Zappa's records". I "think his music is crap", and I "feel no impulse to investigate his catalog further based on what I've heard". Why would I spend time sifting through someone's catalog when everything I've heard by said artist has not affected me in any way I find pleasing, enlightening, or entertaining? Perhaps if MTV played his videos more, I would change my mind about this.

Hey, in one of your 50 tiresome responses that's sure to follow, could you do some more of that clever stuff where you make fun of contemporary pop stars by turning their names into some funny turn of phrase? That is very witty.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:I feel voting Zappa as crap just because you don't like jazz, modern composition, or rock songs with lavish guitar solos isn't fair.

Personally, I do like those things, though not across the board, and not because of how they're categorized. Just for kicks, I'll throw a name out here for each of the categories you named up there: Sun Ra, Arvo Part, and Television, respectively. I'm not a rock-music-only guy, but the complexity of a piece of music is not something I really consider when deciding whether or not I like it, nor is how much perceived "work" or "effort" went into composing or recording it. It just isn't something I care about either way.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:If you don't like "excesses", that's fine... The airwaves are jam packed with simple tunes that we can all hum along with in peace and harmony. Let's not poop on Zappa because he worked hard.... I think it's this sort of attitude that has ruined the music industry. Why would anyone try hard to do anything great, when it will just be deemed "excessive" and "self-indulgent"... Most people want bar chords and 4/4 time.

I don't mind "excesses", and never said I did. What I said was I don't like the Zappa I've heard. It isn't because he worked hard, and it isn't because all I want is bar chords and 4/4 time. It also isn't because I found his music "too challenging" or anything like that. I just thought that what I heard was annoying. I didn't have any emotional response to it, and I didn't care for the way it sounded. I could not care less about how hard he worked to make his music; that does not affect how I hear it. I do not care about the process. I just do not like what I've heard of his end results.

You keep implying that if one doesn't like Zappa, then they must just listen to and accept whatever commercial radio hands them. It is possible, believe it or not, for someone to decide that they do not like Zappa, and- stay with me; this part is a total mindblow- then decide on their own, without even considering what music is popular at the moment, what they actually like. Take some time and let that sink in. A Zappa detractor does not a Neanderthal make.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:Have you heard the most popular song in the world right now? Thanks!

You're welcome, and I probably haven't heard it. I don't really pay attention to Top-40 radio and such. What is the most popular song in the world right now?



(Edited to correct a typo)

placeholder wrote:Yes. The Sex Pistols are my favorite band because MTV told me that they invented punk. I am incapable of forming my own conclusions about what constitutes worthwhile music, because my taste has been spoonfed to me by "the man".

Well, at least you realize it. I give you a lot of credit for that. Record companies do spend a lot of money to promote acts that they think their target audience will enjoy. Since teenagers buy most records, they tend to appeal to them. I don't think this is too far fetched. This is a business, and they're doing what they need to do to turn a profit.

Further, I don't even care about the Pistols' music at all. When I said I considered them a fine rock band, I meant that they're my all-time favorite band, particularly because they excelled at using heroin and committing murder.

That may be a good reason for admiring a group of four people. I'm not sure if it's a good reason for admiring the "art" they created.

I've revealed nothing about my musical taste in this thread other than the fact that I think the Sex Pistols were a decent band, and that I don't care for any of the Zappa stuff I've heard. Somehow, this has been turned into my thinking the Pistols are "holy" and my taste consists of whatever radio hands to me. I don't follow your line of reasoning, but it is very funny. I have to give you this, though:

Gee Wally. All I said was that if your favorite band is the Sex Pistols, you won't like Zappa. Seems like this is true. I only assumed they were your favorite band because of your responses.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:Ian Curtis

You called it. Joy Division are, in fact, my very favorite band. No joke. They have been for years and years. I'll give you that.

They used to be my favorite band in high school. I was in a band that sounded like them. Then I went to college and started listening to KXLU, and found that Joy Division didn't offer too much anymore. I still have their stuff, and my best friend still loves them and has all the posters and vinyl and what have you. We have different values. I like the artists that go above and beyond. It makes me sad to hear how my favorite artists live in poverty. It's almost like they're punished for trying to do something great.

In any case, I don't care about debating Zappa's "worth" with you, a Zappa fan, because that's obviously subjective, as any music's "worth" is.

You seem to be doing a good job debating this, although now it seems to be a debate over artistic values, alleged snobbery, etc. All I said is that some people won't get Zappa. This is true. I don't look down on them, but they don't have to say the guy is a piece of shit, and that it's "carved on stone tablet" that his music is crap.

It is deeply irritating that you seem to categorize music listeners as either people who "get" Zappa (and presumably other "progressive" stuff), or idiots with base tastes in music. There is no grey area, and you cannot have it both ways. That is an asinine assertion to make, but keep making it; your brand of elitism is the funniest sort. It cracks me up that you've again told me that I don't "get" Zappa. I "get" Zappa. I "don't like Zappa's records". I "think his music is crap", and I "feel no impulse to investigate his catalog further based on what I've heard".

I never said anything like this. I said that if your favorite band is the Sex Pistols, you won't get Zappa. If you can show me one person who's favorite band is the Sex Pistols and who also loves Zappa, then I'm wrong. This snobbery thing is something you've concocted and projected on me. I simply posited a theory as to why so many people (on this board) voted that Zappa is crap.

Why would I spend time sifting through someone's catalog when everything I've heard by said artist has not affected me in any way I find pleasing, enlightening, or entertaining? Perhaps if MTV played his videos more, I would change my mind about this.

You don't need to sift through his catalog. There are plenty of people who will buy his recordings. So anything you don't find entertaining gets the "crap" vote? I don't personally listen to Mozart, or find his music entertaining, but I wouldn't call him crap. I guess that's where I'm coming from. Even if Zappa is not entertaining, I think one can appreciate what he did. I mean, he wrote a concept album a few years before "Sgt. Pepper". He was way ahead of his time...

Hey, in one of your 50 tiresome responses that's sure to follow, could you do some more of that clever stuff where you make fun of contemporary pop stars by turning their names into some funny turn of phrase? That is very witty.

Thanks. I think it's funny too. I don't know about witty, though. I think it's funny on a more juvenile level.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:
but I knew it was a case that many people (round here) would prefer 3 chord scratch to hard work.

You my friend are talking a lot of dumb junk. Most great modal jazz of the 60's is one, two chords at the most. A lot of great music is not even based on chords at all. You are really missing a lot in music if how complicated it is or how long it took someone to make it is your litmus test.


A simple strong melody that a child could play can be more powerfull than a 20 minute piece that took 3 years to write.


You are starting to become defensive and take it personally that some of us have heard all of zappa and still don't think he's great.

I named my son lol wyatt after robert wyatt. That is how much I like him. If your were to totally diss him and say his music is shit in the wyatt crap/not crap thread, i wouldnt post 50 times to prove to you how amazing he is. if you think he sucks, so be it.

you are starting to sound like the born again christain at the keg party who is bumming everyone out.

I actually enjoyed reading some of your cocky music critic posts here, but your taking this all a little bit too seriously.
Some of us don't like zappa, big fuckin deal.

capnreverb wrote:You my friend are talking a lot of dumb junk. Most great modal jazz of the 60's is one, two chords at the most. A lot of great music is not even based on chords at all. You are really missing a lot in music if how complicated it is or how long it took someone to make it is your litmus test.

Well, that modal jazz music also has rhythmic complexity and a lot of musical articulation in the form of solos. I'm talking about simple pop-punk sort of stuff. Did I mention the Sex Pistols?

I agree... A lot of great music is not based on chords. I think you are misunderstanding this. All I said is that the Sex Pistols play simple songs with 3 chords, based on a satirical sound Peter Hammill came up with.

Have you heard Yellow Shark?

A simple strong melody that a child could play can be more powerfull than a 20 minute piece that took 3 years to write.

I don't follow the pre-school music scene, but if that's what you're into, I can't tell you it's wrong. Just don't invite the kids over to share your bed.

You are starting to become defensive and take it personally that some of us have heard all of zappa and still don't think he's great.

No. I'm just defending the ludicrous projections that people are superimposing on me. I never started all this "musical snobbery" nonsense. I simply said if your favorite band is the Sex Pistols, you probably won't like Zappa.

I listed those albums (the rim job, you referred to) because a few people wanted recommendations, or it was obvious from the records they mentioned, that they managed to step on every mound of dog poop on the Champs Elyse.

The fact is, it doesn't matter if you think he's great or not. Organizations that promote the music of modern composers do think he's great. These people will ensure the longevity of Zappa's greatest works. I'm not expecting 97.8 FM to be playing "Excentrifugal Forz" in a rock block.

I named my son lol wyatt after robert wyatt. That is how much I like him. If your were to totally diss him and say his music is shit in the wyatt crap/not crap thread, i wouldnt post 50 times to prove to you how amazing he is. if you think he sucks, so be it.

This is a debate on whether Zappa is crap or not. So why is it so surprising that someone is defending Zappa? I think it's much more surprising that he needs any defense.

you are starting to sound like the born again christain at the keg party who is bumming everyone out.

You must go to some wild parties. I mean, is there a born again christian at every party you go to? Do these parties take place in chuch basements or rumpous rooms? Please do tell...

I actually enjoyed reading some of your cocky music critic posts here, but your taking this all a little bit too seriously.
Some of us don't like zappa, big fuckin deal.

Well, you keep on coming back and adding to this thread. Zappa deserves to be taken seriously. Sure he did a lot of juvenile, silly stuff. He won't be remembered for this...

Look, I went to the nationals in debate in high school. If you drop an argument, you agree. Silence is consent in the art of forensics. I just want to work hard and make sure that Frank is remembered positively. I have good friends that know Gail, Susan, Dweezil, Ahmet, Moon, Diva, and Tido. Gail works her ass off to make sure Zappa is given his due respects. I figure the guy worked his ass off to entertain and enlighten me, the least I could do is spend a few hours on a bbs to defend the guy. Fuck, if it wasn't for him we'd be listening to Pat Boone. But I try not to go there, because it's irrelevant to whether his music is crap or not. Well, really, the topic is whether Zappa is crap or not, but I think in this arena, the music facet is implied... And I do think that there is a whole lot of his stuff that is great. You say I'm giving Zappa's catalog a rim job. All I'm trying to do is be constructive and list out what I think are his great works. People asked this, and I'm being constructive. Then you come along, and obviously have some bone to pick with Zappa. Let me at least try to tell people who are unfamiliar with his good stuff what I think is good.

There are people other than you who have replied and asked for recommendations. I think you have turned this into a "me vs. you" thing. Really, it's you who have taken things defensively. You were so irate about me explaining which albums I like, that you said I gave his catalog a rim job. That list wasn't for you. There's other people involved in this discussion, and they have asked for recommendations...

Anyone who would get so irritated about a list of albums is defensive. Does information really bother you that much? Then I have to respond to this crap...

Zappa is boring and not at all funny. CRAP.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah NAME DROP blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah NAME DROP blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah NAME DROP blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah NAME DROP blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah NAME DROP blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah NAME DROP blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

hm...interesting stuff... thanks!

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:Gail works her ass off to make sure Zappa is given his due respects.

Gail Zappa did a Q+A at the Castro Theater after that latest Zappa movie was screened. 2 years ago? Anyway, the FIRST QUESTION was "when are you going to release 'Bat Chain Puller?'"

Good times!

Fuck, if it wasn't for him we'd be listening to Pat Boone.

Uh, no.