Another isolated incident hyped by the media. There have been children killed by other breeds of dogs, too. The pit bull story gets covered because pit bulls are the current 'scary dog' everyone is talking about. In ten years it'll be something else.

John W. wrote:A Georgia-based group called the American Temperament Test Society has put twenty-five thousand dogs through a ten-part standardized drill designed to assess a dog’s stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness in the company of people. A handler takes a dog on a six-foot lead and judges its reaction to stimuli such as gunshots, an umbrella opening, and a weirdly dressed stranger approaching in a threatening way. Eighty-four per cent of the pit bulls that have been given the test have passed, which ranks pit bulls ahead of beagles, Airedales, bearded collies, and all but one variety of dachshund. “We have tested somewhere around a thousand pit-bull-type dogs,” Carl Herkstroeter, the president of the A.T.T.S., says. “I’ve tested half of them. And of the number I’ve tested I have disqualified one pit bull because of aggressive tendencies. They have done extremely well. They have a good temperament. They are very good with children.” It can even be argued that the same traits that make the pit bull so aggressive toward other dogs are what make it so nice to humans. “There are a lot of pit bulls these days who are licensed therapy dogs,” the writer Vicki Hearne points out. “Their stability and resoluteness make them excellent for work with people who might not like a more bouncy, flibbertigibbet sort of dog. When pit bulls set out to provide comfort, they are as resolute as they are when they fight, but what they are resolute about is being gentle. And, because they are fearless, they can be gentle with anybody.”

Neat, but who owns these pit bulls that go through temperment assessments? Sounds like these are show dogs raised by owners who have trained them extensively. There is a big difference between a dog being naturally friendly (like a golden retriver) and being smart and able to follow commands after an extensive level of training.

Also, these dogs are with a handler. Even the friendly pit bulls I know -- their owners are always with them, and never let them out of sight. The attacks happen when the owner is sitting on the couch drinking his 12th budlight, and left the dog out in the yard with the fence open... It's as responsible as having your pet cobra chillin' in the front yard.

What I am worried about is the asshole with the Ford F-250 with the Raiders bumper sticker who got one because it is a killer and keeps it in his house and forgets to shut the garage door. After all, gotta make sure no one rips off his meth operation.

There are people who are responsible and own these dogs, but since there is no certification for dog ownership, these dogs are often owned by wicked assholes who relish in the fact that they are a dog bred for fighting. Unfortunately, a lot of these assholes are so irresponsible, they can't even close the gate on their fence, so people in their neighborhood have to be terrorized because they HAD to have THIS breed of dog.

Sure, the Little Rascals and Helen Keller may have had pit bulls. But people who own kennels and are in dog clubs will rarely let pit bulls and rottweilers use their facilities. These are people who know dogs, and they are aware of the pit bull's working behaviors. I used to be more of the type that thought pit bulls were hyped, but after I have seen so many dog-oriented groups and services deny pit bulls and rottweilers admittance, I now concur that these dogs maybe aren't the best idea...

John W. wrote:Another isolated incident hyped by the media. There have been children killed by other breeds of dogs, too. The pit bull story gets covered because pit bulls are the current 'scary dog' everyone is talking about. In ten years it'll be something else.

Don't you think that the woman locking the child in her basement is a sign that even she knew the dog is aggressive?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... D7G5L1.DTL

Seems to me she put the kid in a dangerous situation, which she knew was dangerous.

Beyond the fact that she has seriously misplaced priorities... Lock the kid in the basement and let the dogs have the run of the house?

I haven't followed this case, but I seriously hope she gets convicted of at least manslaughter.

http://www.petsmart.com/doggiedaycamp/index.shtml

PetSmart web site wrote:"Who may not attend?

Intact (unneutered) male dogs or pregnant females
Dogs with any aggressive tendencies regardless of breed
Dogs in the "bully breed" classification (e.g. Pit Bull Terriers, American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, American Bull Dogs or mixed breeds that have the appearance or characteristics of one of these breeds)
Wolves/wolf hybrids "

So even greedy corporate American dog Walmarts will pass on business from pit bulls and other dogs in the "bully breed" classification.

Seems to me, if a buck could be made from these "benign" dogs, they would do it...

Follow the money... This is like how health insurance companies don't advocate vegetarianism... The huge mega-lo dog corporation could do without the business of pit bull owners. Must be something of substance for an American corporation to pass up sales...

Here is an experiment that I think can put things into perspective.

Go to Google, and type in the following search queries:

golden retriever kills
chihuahua kills
pug kills
pit bull kills

Let me know what you find out. Media bias? Let me assure you, when a chihuahua ends up killing someone, we will hear about it everyday for the next several months...

And, again, not to get too Clarence Darrow, but those pro-pitbull stats up above actually support the evidence that the breed is disproportionately violent, when you figure there are over 150 breeds of dogs and pit bulls are not even in the top 50... 20% of fatalities is a HUGE proportion. There are other breeds of dogs that a vicious and dangerous, and these should also be eliminated.

It's my understanding that pit bulls are one of the most popular breeds out there -- I don't have the data on this, but I see them everywhere... I'm wondering if maybe there are more of them than you think -- another reason why there would be a higher number of attacks caused by the breed (not proportionally, just in general because they're so popular). Also, pit bulls are more aggressive towards other animals, so I can completely understand why PetSmart wouldn't want people bringing them into their store.

yut wrote:What I am worried about is the asshole with the Ford F-250 with the Raiders bumper sticker who got one because it is a killer and keeps it in his house and forgets to shut the garage door. After all, gotta make sure no one rips off his meth operation.

I believe that we should punish the asshole owners. Don't make families who have a loving dog put it to sleep because of some other irresponsible person.

yut wrote:Neat, but who owns these pit bulls that go through temperment assessments? Sounds like these are show dogs raised by owners who have trained them extensively.

I just don't know -- I have no idea about the methodology, but I don't think they would just use a bunch of show dogs. Hmmm...

yut wrote:Here is an experiment that I think can put things into perspective.

Go to Google, and type in the following search queries:

golden retriever kills
chihuahua kills
pug kills
pit bull kills

Let me know what you find out. Media bias? Let me assure you, when a chihuahua ends up killing someone, we will hear about it everyday for the next several months...

Yeah, but what about dobermans? German shepherds? Kill 'em all?

yut wrote:Don't you think that the woman locking the child in her basement is a sign that even she knew the dog is aggressive?

She had to have known the dog was acting aggressively... also, the father should've gotten the dog neutered... again that goes for any breed of dog. If the mother knew it was behaving aggressively, she should've dealt with the situation accordingly. Locking a kid in the basement? That news story is really sad, but again, if any breed of dog is behaving in an alarmingly violent way, you need to keep it away from other pets and protect the people near it... this goes for pit bulls, chows, or whatever.

Uh, yeah. I fucked up elsewhere.

**BUMP**

I didn't want to derail the Vick thread, and I figured we might as well make this a C/NC poll.

I've been walking my dog in the local mega pet store now for about 8 months. We took training classes--beginner, inter., adv.--passed the CGC, and now 'we' are going to work there as trainer and demo dog.

I've seen a lot of damned dogs and owners this last year. Cute ones, ugly ones, big ones, little ones, nice ones, mean ones, fluffy ones, and bald ones.

What do the people of this forum think: Is it the owner or the breed?

Most of the owners [though I have no empirical data to support this claim] of these breeds do not enroll them in classes, start their puppies with choke chains, etc. and sometimes even encourage fear and belligerent behavior. E.g., the asshole who walked his pit in on a chain. This wasn't a chain leash, but a chain with 1.5 inch links that had been rigged into a collar/leash and just walked it up to other dogs in class without first asking permission. I'm trying to think of a polite way to put it but I can't: These owners are not middleclass white people who feed their dogs quality food, walk them, socialize them with other adults and children, or with other dogs. They seem perplexed when it's suggested that the 5 week old [Too young to be separated from the litter!!!] requires shots, or that the dorky head collar will work better than the BAD TO THE BONE or Harley Davidson set they picked out, or that **GASP** their nuts get cut off. Tell them that there's special toothpaste for the dog that significantly increases the dog's health and lifespan, and they will look at you as though you suggested they should have gotten a Tinkerbell instead.

That said, pits are related to, though technically a different breed from, Staffords which were bred for fighting bulls and bears. MOTHER FUCKING BEARS!!! How much of this is nature? I'm too conservative to just say "fuck it, outlaw the dogs," as generation upon generation of these things were bred to kill, kill, kill. That's not their fault. But, the toughest ones bred with the toughest ones, the weaker ones were either killed in action or by cocksuckers like Mike Vick, etc., and that yeilded small monsters if not properly tamed. I can't help but think that this breed in public is like allowing a class of ninjas to just walk the streets.

WTF? I don't like these things around my dog. I do not like the dogs. Period.

But I hate these fucking lowclass, proud, macho assholes much, much more. It is sad that their continued way of life has essentially smeared mud on a set of animals that really had no choice in the matter.

I'm on the fence here.

none of the ones i've met have been evil. most have been very sweet.

i've met meaner shih tzus, chihuahuas, schnauzers, and dachsunds. fucking small harmless breeds with severe napoleon complexes. they won't fuck you up, but since owners are less worried about their bites they're a little lackadaisical in training them not to bite. little bastard dogs, those breeds.

i think the issue isn't even the pitbull itself. it's the fact that they are the most common fight dog. many of them are bred and raised irresponsibly so there's a greater chance of you running into a shitty one than a sweet one.

they are a pain in the ass as a pet though. they're big, strong, have super-canine pain threshholds, and have a bad reputation.

training them is a pain in the ass. walking them is a pain in the ass. renting a place is a pain in the ass.

all that said, my brother's pitbull, cassius, is the best dog in the world.

I had a Pit once, and I have never had a friendlier dog.
It was just so full of love for anyone, anytime.

I have also never had a dog that was so untrainable.
I had to babysit it 24 hours a day, or it would get into something and demolish it within five minutes.
And it NEVER got tired. Ever.

LIttle bastards (for bad and good) indeed...