Kenoki, you seem to credit the unkown as being from a higher being, a creator, a god, or whatever to fill in the blanks. I find that irrational and unnescessary. I think that a rational and scientific approach to the unkown will help us discover what is not yet known.

When we don't discover what is behind something we don't need to chalk it up to a god, or at least I don't. I'm satisfied knowing that the universe may not reveal all of it's secrets and satisfied that there may or may not be a god. It doesn't frighten me and I don't need religion to fill in any blanks for me.

As Steve said, it is a state of mind that we exist in. If a belief in god to fill in the blanks comforts you, great. For me I can live without fear with the blanks and hope that someday those blanks will be filled. If it turns out to be filled by god, that's great, but I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that they are.

El Protoolio wrote:Kenoki, you seem to credit the unkown as being from a higher being, a creator, a god, or whatever to fill in the blanks. I find that irrational and unnescessary. I think that a rational and scientific approach to the unkown will help us discover what is not yet known.

that would imply i know about the unknown, protoolio. here's my quote:

"The unknown; being open to the idea of things that we may be unable to see, understand, nor verbally communicate at present, and certainly provide no hard evidence of to satisfy your mind; with or without a “God,” afterlife or recycling of souls attached;is not limited to yr religious folk [here I should have added: or most devout atheist], but the problem with some of them is that they think they know everything without even trying."

When we don't discover what is behind something we don't need to chalk it up to a god, or at least I don't. I'm satisfied knowing that the universe may not reveal all of it's secrets and satisfied that there may or may not be a god. It doesn't frighten me and I don't need religion to fill in any blanks for me.

As someone said, it is a state of mind that we exist in. If a belief in god to fill in the blanks comforts you, great. For me I can live without fear with the blanks and hope that someday those blanks will be filled. If it turns out to be filled by god, that's great, but I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that they are.

reread or redirect yr comments to someone else. i'm not talking about god, bro or your idea of religion. you could call me an active agnostic. but i am open to the idea of everything and everything can be anything, and often is.

I guess I misunderstood yr point "bro". I hope you can manage to forgive me. Amen.

kenoki wrote: You are relegating the entire unknown, the freaking UNKNOWN, to an episode of Medium or the King’s bible. It pains me.

That something is unknown does not make it supernatural. Give me one reason to believe that there is anything other than the natural world. One reason. Seriouslly, if the unknown and the supernatural are immense and timeless, there must be some thing you can point to that would suggest it exists.

Isn't there anything? Nothing at all? I just have to believe in it so I can believe in it?

No can do. You've got to give me a reason.

kenoki wrote:The unknown; being open to the idea of things that we may be unable to see, understand, nor verbally communicate at present, and certainly provide no hard evidence of to satisfy your mind...

If this stuff is all unknown, and there is no evidence of it, and we cannot see or comprehend it, why do you think it is there at all?

Seriously, what gives you the idea that there is something there? A hunch?

Edited to fix spacing

steve wrote:

kenoki wrote:The unknown; being open to the idea of things that we may be unable to see, understand, nor verbally communicate at present, and certainly provide no hard evidence of to satisfy your mind...

If this stuff is all unknown, and there is no evidence of it, and we cannot see or comprehend it, why do you think it is there at all?

Seriously, what gives you the idea that there is something there? A hunch?

Man is religious, Steve. Most of my forefathers were. I bet most of your forefathers were, too.

I have seen people swap long drug-addictions for life-long Jesus-addictions. Is still a very powerful thing, this religion.

That something is unknown does not make it supernatural. Give me one reason to believe that there is anything other than the natural world. One reason. Seriouslly, if the unknown and the supernatural are immense and timeless, there must be some thing you can point to that would suggest it exists.

Isn't there anything? Nothing at all? I just have to believe in it so I can believe in it?

If this stuff is all unknown, and there is no evidence of it, and we cannot see or comprehend it, why do you think it is there at all?

Seriously, what gives you the idea that there is something there? A hunch?

Ok, stop. I could have gone into what I meant by “The Unknown” more earlier, and apparently I should have. You talk like this is a specific item from which only a handful of q’s and a’s can be drawn.

To be honest I spent some time on that initial long post. I think I answered a lot of things I figured would come up and tried to make clear where I was coming from, cause there are a lot of posters with different views on here and I didn’t feel like one had represented my camp yet. So, if you wanna get in this discussion at least get involved. The same two questions repeatedly, as a method of argument, can get pretty daunting when it becomes apparent yr arguing the point you always do in almost the same way, without understanding that your audience has changed.

So, you don't have a reason then. Is that right? You just believe in things so you can believe in them?

I appreciate that you think this supernatural "unknown" is huge, and that our capacity for understanding is small. I don't want you to explain it all, just give me a reason to believe in any dinky little part of it. Anything at all.

I'm not scoffing at what you believe, I just want to understand how one can come to believe in something that hides as if it were not there at all. If you want to represent your point of view, fine; have one. What is your point of view, precisely, other than "I believe in something, and whatever it is, it must have designed the eyeball?" Represent. And please, tell me something about why you believe this, other than that it isn't categorically impossible.

steve wrote:So, you don't have a reason then. Is that right? You just believe in things so you can believe in them?

I appreciate that you think this supernatural "unknown" is huge, and that our capacity for understanding is small. I don't want you to explain it all, just give me a reason to believe in any dinky little part of it. Anything at all.

I'm not scoffing at what you believe, I just want to understand how one can come to believe in something that hides as if it were not there at all. If you want to represent your point of view, fine; have one. What is your point of view, precisely, other than "I believe in something, and whatever it is, it must have designed the eyeball?" Represent. And please, tell me something about why you believe this, other than that it isn't categorically impossible.

what does who created the eyeball have to do with anything? again, i'm not talking about just the "higher power," somebody else has at some point perhaps and for that i am glad if they did something to test their theories, to prove themselves wrong or expand their understanding... for the long haul.

what is proven i will believe as science. the supernatural can become science and not seem so unfamiliar anymore. how can the supernatural exist without a science? i mean, it exists right? humans aren't so defective that we are biologically completely out of tune with what rules all. the thread. right? all dogs eat grass? nor do i think i should have to make you believe anything since i don't believe in shit. what do i have to represent? other than a certain amount of tolerance, patience, and lots of discretion.

there are a million things that the unknown can inspire, one being religion as i said... what i do think is necessary is that we allow that freedom for people to investigate what questions they do have, regardless of where they stem from, and not just vilify anything that may overlap with your precious study. serious evidence is necessary to make something fact, acknowledged. but half the time wonder and theory inspires that... and that can come from all these compartmentalized idea wards, so quit doggin' the homies, when what actually needs to be fixed are the way peeps get deluded into thinking they know everything and not willing to live life as a big fat question mark, constantly reworking what you thought you know.

words, these are all just words! religion! what a joke! being open doesn't mean you have an idea! it means you don't! can you isolate or measure what's inspired you to create and record music for all these years? other than those cold hard duckets. the times when you are totally alone and something audible means more than what has preceded it or what will come of it. i mean........ really?