that damned fly wrote:

owens wrote:I generally find any band that plays longer than 20 minutes to be oppressive and fatiguing, no matter what the volume...but that's just me.

me too.

generally.

Well Fly, good tone is rare (why, I'm not sure). And then we have live sound in general.

m.koren wrote:

that damned fly wrote:

owens wrote:I generally find any band that plays longer than 20 minutes to be oppressive and fatiguing, no matter what the volume...but that's just me.

me too.

generally.

Well Fly, good tone is rare (why, I'm not sure). And then we have live sound in general.

i know why.

people don't listen. even the ones doing the playing don't.

painters had their brushes and colors, we got our guitars and tones. most people don't know how to mix the colors right. so we end up with painting after crappy painting with an orange shade that just looks awful. (this metaphor sucks.)

here's what gets me: sound isn't rocket science. does it sound good or bad? bad. why? boomy, muddy, shrill, etc. those terms all describe a particular range of frequencies. take the ones doing the bad sounding out/turn them down. find a mix. not rocket science. at all. and seems to me that too much volume would lend itself to murkiness. i can't imagine you'd have a 100w full stack eq'd the same way as a 50w half stack. maybe ditch a cab.

bad live sound is a combination of two things. 1. an idiot. 2. pressed for time.

what was it steve said...?

"move the fader to where it sounds good and then don't touch it anymore."

something like that.

most venues (at least the one's i've seen around here) don't need a p.a. if a drummer can't be heard, then he's not hitting hard enough. p.a.'s should be for vocals.

(generally) music is better in small rooms. ever wonder why? b/c it sounds like the band. not the band thru some dime-store amp system. what's the point in playing nice guitars thru nice amps when in the end they're all being run through peavey's, behringers, crate's, (other cheap gear?)

i saw j. mascis and the fog once. it sucked. one because it was j. mascis but two because he was too fucking loud. it hurt. hurting isn't fun.

the atmosphere of live shows is all fucked up these days. people really should shut the fuck up while a band is playing. go to the back, go somewhere else. clap and whoo between songs. the band is/should be there for the sake of art. not in a lame art-rock (run!) kind of way, but music is art. no argument. if a band has to compete with an audience for volume then something is totally fucked up.

not that i'm expecting polite string quartet like levels at shows. i do like loud bands. but loud within reason, i.e.- vocals through a p.a., guitars thru halfstacks, bass thru full stacks, and a drummer who hits hard enough to be heard through all that.

enough ranting. those are just my takes.

also, a band SHOULD know how to make themselves sound good. if they don't then they aren't much of a band.

m.koren wrote:Oh , I get it now Adam. You must be the offical EA contrarian. Yawn.

that damned fly wrote:here's what gets me: sound isn't rocket science. does it sound good or bad? bad. why? boomy, muddy, shrill, etc. those terms all describe a particular range of frequencies. take the ones doing the bad sounding out/turn them down. find a mix. not rocket science. at all. and seems to me that too much volume would lend itself to murkiness. i can't imagine you'd have a 100w full stack eq'd the same way as a 50w half stack. maybe ditch a cab.

bad live sound is a combination of two things. 1. an idiot. 2. pressed for time.

what was it steve said...?

"move the fader to where it sounds good and then don't touch it anymore."

something like that.

Mixing live sound isnt hard, but it isnt necessarily that easy either. Think of all the people who come on here and ask questions about/struggle with mixes for songs theyve recorded. Many of them arent even all that inexperienced, they are just having trouble identifying the bad, separating it from the good, and minimizing it. Now imagine them (or you, even) having to do the same thing, on the fly, with material they may have never heard of before. Live sound can be a challenge, and half the challenge isnt even in moving faders. That's the easy stuff. Identifying the source of problems youve never heard before and curing them is tougher. So is just dealing with bands and musicians -- giving them what they need and not getting in their way. It's often not as easy as you'd like it to be.

Assuming you can get the guitar player and drummer to quit playing for five seconds and give you some space on the stage, you go and set up the mics, let them back on and level/sound check, eq everything, get the mix set, and then (like you said) dont change it once it sounds good. Phew.

Oh wait, all of a sudden it doesnt sound as good any more. What changed? What should you do? Etc.

It can be a challenge.

Of course, lots of bad live sound doesnt spring from idiots or being pressed for time. A surprising percentage of it springs from crap bands. Even bands whose records you like may be kinda crap live -- not able to sing, out of tune, all open hihats and simpering snare hits, whatever. Crap bands whose sound is reinforced are unlikely to sound better because theyre louder; no amount of fader moving will change that (aside from perhaps moving all of the faders all the way down).

that damned fly wrote:most venues (at least the one's i've seen around here) don't need a p.a. if a drummer can't be heard, then he's not hitting hard enough. p.a.'s should be for vocals.

So you dont like hearing kick drum? Ask your drummer if he thinks it's important if anyone hears it. Because without a mic in it, no one will.

Even in the smallest rooms, most PAs need to be able to at minimum do kick and vocals. That said, I always mic up everything I can, even when it's a small room. You never know when that guitarist with the half stack is gonna be shy or the drummer who hit like a monster in sound check is gonna get winded by song 3 and start hitting like a kitten. A snare mic or an "unneeded" mic on the big guitar amp has saved more than one or two shows for me.

that damned fly wrote:(generally) music is better in small rooms. ever wonder why? b/c it sounds like the band. not the band thru some dime-store amp system. what's the point in playing nice guitars thru nice amps when in the end they're all being run through peavey's, behringers, crate's, (other cheap gear?)

Most big rooms that Ive worked dont have Behringer or Peavey gear, that's usually reserved for the "good sounding" small room vocal PAs. There are other challenges for big rooms, largely acoustic, but Ive heard good sound (and bad) in every imaginable size of room. I believe there is no correlation or even trend between room size and quality of sound.

that damned fly wrote:also, a band SHOULD know how to make themselves sound good. if they don't then they aren't much of a band.

No argument there. Like I said, you cant fix a band that doesnt play like one.

They can always blame the live sound "idiot" when they sound bad though. Crap bands always have that luxury.

i disagree completely about the kick drum thing.

tell your drummer to put the front head back on, and take all the muffling out, and not to port the damn thing.

also, tell him not to let the batter rest on the head after he hits it, but let it rebound off. then tell him to learn to control that.

people will hear it.

you've heard those marching band kick drums right?

you can hear those from fucking miles away. apply the same prinicples, but control the boom.

that damned fly wrote:i disagree completely about the kick drum thing.
tell your drummer to put the front head back on, and take all the muffling out, and not to port the damn thing.

Agreed. Fuck ports.

LOUDER! LOUDER!

that damned fly wrote:i disagree completely about the kick drum thing.

tell your drummer...

I dont have a drummer.

I agree that drums with full front heads sound better for just about anything but metal. That said, you can't hear marching band drums from miles away. A half mile, maybe, but not miles. That's still a lot, but there are a few other important differences between marching band bass drums and what you describe:

1) Marching band bass drums are carried at ear level for the average parade crowd. They arent being slammed into the knees of the folks right in front of the stage.

2) There are usually at least two or three of them per marching band. Sometimes more.

3) Marching band kick drums dont have to compete with 110 dB of screeching midrange in a tiny, enclosed space.

Ive seen plenty (a plethora, even) of bands who didnt have mics on the kick drum. The drum is not audible. Maybe they just didnt follow your rules.

Anyway, I dont know what your problem is with mics on more than vocals, but if you showed up at a club where I was doing sound, you should feel free (as should any band) to come right up, shake my hand, and say, "How are you doing tonight, sound guy? My names that damned fly. No mics on anything but the vocals for us. You take it easy tonight."

After I replied, "Are you sure?" that would be it. It is not my place to argue with your intent; I would be glad to oblige. I always expect that bands with specific sound requests know what they want and why they want it, reason or my idea of "good sound" be damned.

endofanera wrote:

that damned fly wrote:i disagree completely about the kick drum thing.

tell your drummer...

I dont have a drummer.

I agree that drums with full front heads sound better for just about anything but metal. That said, you can't hear marching band drums from miles away. A half mile, maybe, but not miles. That's still a lot, but there are a few other important differences between marching band bass drums and what you describe:

1) Marching band bass drums are carried at ear level for the average parade crowd. They arent being slammed into the knees of the folks right in front of the stage.

2) There are usually at least two or three of them per marching band. Sometimes more.

3) Marching band kick drums dont have to compete with 110 dB of screeching midrange in a tiny, enclosed space.

Ive seen plenty (a plethora, even) of bands who didnt have mics on the kick drum. The drum is not audible. Maybe they just didnt follow your rules.

Anyway, I dont know what your problem is with mics on more than vocals, but if you showed up at a club where I was doing sound, you should feel free (as should any band) to come right up, shake my hand, and say, "How are you doing tonight, sound guy? My names that damned fly. No mics on anything but the vocals for us. You take it easy tonight."

After I replied, "Are you sure?" that would be it. It is not my place to argue with your intent; I would be glad to oblige. I always expect that bands with specific sound requests know what they want and why they want it, reason or my idea of "good sound" be damned.

Based on what you wrote above , you don't come across like any other soundman I've encountered.

endofanera wrote:

that damned fly wrote:i disagree completely about the kick drum thing.

tell your drummer...

I dont have a drummer.

I agree that drums with full front heads sound better for just about anything but metal. That said, you can't hear marching band drums from miles away. A half mile, maybe, but not miles. That's still a lot, but there are a few other important differences between marching band bass drums and what you describe:

1) Marching band bass drums are carried at ear level for the average parade crowd. They arent being slammed into the knees of the folks right in front of the stage.

2) There are usually at least two or three of them per marching band. Sometimes more.

3) Marching band kick drums dont have to compete with 110 dB of screeching midrange in a tiny, enclosed space.

Ive seen plenty (a plethora, even) of bands who didnt have mics on the kick drum. The drum is not audible. Maybe they just didnt follow your rules.

Anyway, I dont know what your problem is with mics on more than vocals, but if you showed up at a club where I was doing sound, you should feel free (as should any band) to come right up, shake my hand, and say, "How are you doing tonight, sound guy? My names that damned fly. No mics on anything but the vocals for us. You take it easy tonight."

After I replied, "Are you sure?" that would be it. It is not my place to argue with your intent; I would be glad to oblige. I always expect that bands with specific sound requests know what they want and why they want it, reason or my idea of "good sound" be damned.

doesn't this kind of go back to the "bands are too loud" thing i said earlier?

or maybe i meant to say it.

either way, if you have trouble hearing a kick drum, something could be wrong. it should feel like a punch in the earhole.

maybe most kick drums are broken.

drums are just like guitars, not just any of them will sound good, and for some reason i doubt most people have good sounding kick drums.

either way, i'm probably wrong.