clocker bob wrote:El Protoolio wrote:No Bob what Minotaur is saying is that as far as our government goes America has many flaws but on a personal level he loves it here.
I follow you totally, which is why I tried to be careful with my words for once. Here's his original statement:
Minotaur wrote:Additionally, even under Bush, we're still the greatest country in the world...the land of opportunity, though perhaps not the land of the free.
That's different from saying, "I love it here, despite the flaws". Minotaur's statement reduces to, "Despite the flaws,
America is the greatest country in the world." I asked him a simple question about the limits of his approval, and he has ducked it twice. I'll post it again:
Minotaur, could you specify what level of killing America would need to reach for you to take the title of 'greatest' away from this country? Can you give me a number, a body count?
el Protoolio, if you tell me that is a question that Minotaur should not have an answer for or that it's a question that is permissible to duck, I'll be very surprised.
To me, Minotaur's statement looks like a ringing endorsement of America that covers not only everything that makes it a great country to live in for some of us,
but also advertises America as the 'greatest country in the world', to those who
don't live in it. It's false advertising, and it's incredibly hubristic. I don't see how anyone willing to see the USA from an outsider's perspective can make that statement, and I think it is
mandatory for anyone slapping that 'America is the greatest' bumpersticker across their forehead to consider America
in total, not just their immediate surroundings.
Tie on the shoes of others and walk around and tell me how well they fit for those in Central America or Southeast Asia or in the Middle East. Because America is a part of
those people's lives too, whether they ask for it to be or not. America is an empire and must be evaluated as an empire.
To say this: "I love my life in America, *and* I think it's the greatest country in the world" demands the argument that I gave to minotaur.
el protoolio wrote: You couldn't possibly spend all of your time on this shit.
I spend what I think is enough time on it. I like my perspective, which strives to incorporate the viewpoints of outsiders to America who are unfortunate pawns or corpses strewn along the roadside of America's two centuries of conquest. I think it is the more humane and worldly perspective.
If I logged onto electrical.com from CarBomb City, Iraq and found Minotaur saying that America was the greatest country in the world, I'd want a car bomb to blow up outside his front door. If there is a 'real' organized Terror Threat, then it's statements like Minotaur's that put crosshairs on our backs and gives the jihadists all the propaganda they need. It's a perfect example of what puts those popcorn kernels of rage inside the heads of angry Muslims and makes them go 'pop': Minotaur, from his very safe place far from the front lines and behind a trillion dollar military apparatus, is waving the middle finger at the outside world: "Hah, hah, my life is great and you can't get near me! Suck on that! "
I refuse to call America the greatest country in the world and I think that makes me a better American, because, with my refusal, I am much closer to demanding change than Minotaur is.
Go ahead, demand change. I'm sure you'll get it.
Yes, it's true, living in America is still the shit...whether or not we're in the midst of a downward spiral that cannot be averted. Living in terms of "strategy"...well, we'll never get fuckin' conquered. Who would ever do that? The Canadians? The Mexicans? Some other country? You'd have to nuke us to get rid of us...our location on the globe is pretty much impenetrable, and our reputation as wacko gun-nuts preceeds us. Europe is still fractured as fuck...even with its economic unity, time and time again, we've seen those little countries get run over. Even islands such as England/Scotland and Ireland saw ethnic leadership change hands time and time again.
Additionally, we're still at the very centure of culture...there's some back and forth exchange with the UK, but we're still the tastemakers.
Americans work hard...no fucking vacation time really in comparison to Europe...I admire the almost inconceivable work ethic of the non-gazillionaire American, especially in jobs that are the fucking pits (most of them). For your average American joe, the idea that other countries get as many as 6 or 8 weeks of paid vacation would probably make his or her head explode.
I wish I wouldn't have said "America is the greatest country in the world"...what I really meant was that its people we are blessed as fuck...more so than just about any place else. We are still the land of opportunity. Foreign workers come in all the time in order to make a fat wad of cash and then go home where the money they make in America takes them a long fuckin' way (I'd go on about the "opportunity" thing [but I'm at work {where I'm usually working}]). Also, while our moral high-ground has been corrupted, the
idea of America is still a beautiful and powerful one. The right president/leadership could very well bring this spirit back into the realm of legitimacy. Throw in the beautiful landscape and our freedom to travel across a beautiful, enormous country with no limit to the types of environments and vegetation we are exposed to...and well...it's pretty fucking hard to beat.
clocker bob wrote:Minotaur, could you specify what level of killing America would need to reach for you to take the title of 'greatest' away from this country? Can you give me a number, a body count?
We're not the first to pull this sort of shit. The Russians are
still cocksuckers in this respect as well...Afghanistan...Chechnya...
A body count? I was never ducking this question...I've just been busy...(again, I'm at work)...what about the Europeans? What about the Crusades? World War I? Early 20th Century Africa? The Belgians
alone slaughtered and starved 10 MILLION in the former Zaire. Your America bashing is warranted, but our government's misdeeds in a wider context...pretty standard, no?...maybe/probably even below the "evil" norm. A body count is a ridiculous suggestion in terms of "a line in the sand," Bob. I'm not going to feel ashamed to be American just because some dickhats that don't give a
shit about my opinion are responsible for the deaths of over half a million Iraqis. I am not responsible for Bush as much as the Belgians weren't responsible for King Leopold or whatever his name was.
Often, your fear mongering isn't much better than Bush's. Your stark "6-11-07" as your sig...that sort of ambiguous, unexplained statement says it all. The far left likes to inspire fear in the same way the far right does. Threads about how Bush might be trying to institute martial law...the whole draft paranoia from the 2004 election...it pisses people off just as much as "the terrorists hate our freedom." Basically...the self-righteous Cindy Sheehans and Jesse Jacksons of this world piss me off just like the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells, even if they agree with me.
Gotta go.