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steve wrote:While I know Ray Charles accompanied himself on the piano, I can't think of anything special about his music.

I prefer both volumes of Modern Sounds in Country and Western to Stevie Wonder's best records (probably Innervisions and Talking Book, though I'm fond of I Was Made to Love Her).

I don't remember any of his playing at all. He performed, like Johnny Cash, with the sensation of being in the moment of every lyric, which I admire, and he had a propulsive delivery, but neither of them did anything groundbreaking with their music.

Great piano player. He played reeds as well, but I can't say as I know where. And he went blind at age 7, so take that, Stevie Wonder.

He put out, like, 80 records, so it can be tough to navigate his discog.

But I refer you to Modern Sounds in Country and Western, which define a genre that still hasn't really been tapped.

In general, Ray Charles fused soul, R&B, gospel, and country and western into a new form of music. I"m sure that is the generic 'music encyclopedia' version of what he did, but hey, he did it! And it was no accident--vision (ahem), masterful arrangement skills, and force of will. Pretty groundbreaking. And he did it all on heroin!

Sly Stone and James Brown had awesome bands, and used them to good effect. Good party music. Stevie Wonder often was the band and covered a much wider emotional spectrum.

In the case of Sly Stone, this is manifestly untrue. Long way from Dance to the Music to Family Affair, and many many many stops in between (and before them).

It's not an insult to say that Stevie Wonder never touched Stand! or There's a Riot Goin' On. Hardly anyone else has. The emotional breadth of Sly Stone's music is what sets his best three or so albums worth of stuff apart from these competitors we're talking about.

In the case of JB, he had a much more businesslike relationship to what he did than anyone else we're talking about, so that affects things. But he also invented funk, which also affects things.

Prince? A little puppy. If he has 10 interesting minutes of music in his catalog, I'm being generous, and his production aesthetic was poisonous.

I understand the cultural baggage that Prince has for many people. His flamboyance and cockiness and salaciousness and ubiquity and gated snare sounds have combined to put people off him.

As a musician, he's the most talented pop artist of the last twenty-five years. No one else is really close.

He can sing rings around Stevie Wonder. He's a phenomenal guitarist and bass player. Great drummer. I don't know about anything else.

I think Sign 'O' the Times is better than anything Stevie Wonder ever did. I would take Dirty Mind or 1999 or Purple Rain as well. And Batman isn't nearly as bad as Stevie's worst.

Anyway, Johnny Cash: undoubtedly a worse clavinet player than Stevie Wonder. Definitely not blind. Well, he has some vision problems now, but you know, back in the (alive) day, not blind.

I would rather listen to pretty much anything he did on Sun than pretty much anything Stevie Wonder has done. I suppose it comes down to that.

I think this is a good thunderdome!

tmidgett wrote:As a musician, he's the most talented pop artist of the last twenty-five years. No one else is really close.

He can sing rings around Stevie Wonder. He's a phenomenal guitarist and bass player. Great drummer. I don't know about anything else.

I'm trying to think of a cute way to crowbar in the phrase 'cock and balls'...




...oh fuck. I give up.

First off, Cash by a mile.

"Uh, hey guys, here's my harmonica record. Hope you like it."

Stevie Wonder is fucking punk rock.

Cash did the same thing to Sam Phillips. Cash said "I'm doing a gospel record" and Sam said "No way" and Cash scooted off to Columbia where they were more than happy to have him.

Stevie also never had a TV show where he had pretty much carte blanche to bring in just about anybody worth having play at the time.

Other thoughts from the threads: Stevie sure put out a lot of shit in the 80s, but Cash did, too. You just didn't hear it. Go on, I dare you to listen to I Would Like To See You Again or Boom Chicka Boom.

I don't get the whole "Stevie was a better musician", 'cause Cash's voice WAS the instrument. Apples and oranges, which of course is the appeal of this Thunderdome. A less perpendicular Thunderdome would be Cash & Ray Charles.

Someone dismissed the Cash hymns, but damn, then you're missing out on some of his best work. I'm no Christian, but songs like "The Old Account (Was Settled Long Ago)", "Are All The Children In?" and "Why Me Lord?" move me like few othe songs can.

And so the fuck what if he only wrote maybe one fourth of the songs he performed? Nobody pisses on Frances Albert Sinatra for doing covers.

Pure musicianship: Stevie. The total package: Cash Cash Cash.

tmidgett wrote:In the case of JB, he had a much more businesslike relationship to what he did than anyone else we're talking about, so that affects things. But he also invented funk, which also affects things

James Brown is in another universe from anyone mentioned in this thread, or any other thread.

vockins wrote:

tmidgett wrote:In the case of JB, he had a much more businesslike relationship to what he did than anyone else we're talking about, so that affects things. But he also invented funk, which also affects things

James Brown is in another universe from anyone mentioned in this thread, or any other thread.

Yeah, I was speaking only to the emotional breadth of his songs.

My point being that emotional breadth is irrelevant when you actually invent funk and transform popular music in the process. He had well done his work by that point.

You could make entire records of just the basslines or just the drum breaks....Ah, people do this already, don't they?

I don't know, I'm probably giving him short shrift even on that point. It's a Man's Man's Man's World, Try Me, etc. I guess what I'm getting at is that he was a showman much more than anyone else we're discussing, except Prince maybe. And as a showman, he tended to work with a pretty wide brush on the emotional front.

Andy wrote:Nobody pisses on Frances Albert Sinatra for doing covers.

i do.

Johnny Cash is overrated. His lyrics are ridiculous. His storied "amazing voice" is actually nothing of the sort. Paul Westerberg had a beautiful voice. John Lennon had a beautiful voice. Willie Nelson had a beautiful voice. Johnny Cash had a baritone blurt, as though a hovercraft were trying to vibrate on key. Nondescript. And his Joaquin Phoenix biopic was a waste of two hours of my life.

I probably only think this because the genre of country music has always been considered a "dead end" by me. I haven't encountered more than a handful of country songs that weren't formulaic, tedious pieces of trash. This judgment does not include Neko Case, though, who transcends the genre and makes its few appealing aspects her own.

I just checked with Wikipedia, and, yes, just as I thought, it's almost totally impossibe to write interesting music solely by using C to G to E and a watered-down blues scale for solos.

Now, on to the Afro-Americans. Sly Stone and James Brown shit all over Stevie Wonder. Not even close.

James Brown's band from the Sixties, which included Bootsy Collins and that "Chank" guitar player, is one of the tightest, most awe-inspiring rock and roll groups I've ever encountered. And Sly Stone's later material was intricate and emotionally resonant, not just party music.

Stevie Wonder never got Brown's rhythm section. He never understood Sly's songwriting prowess. He had some decent tracks here and there, but overall he is a footnote compared to Brown, Sly and Prince.

Ray Charles shits and pisses on everyone I've mentioned here. He's an American classic.

I vote Wonder. But only just. Someone bought me a Johnny Cash greatest hits CD. Brilliant.

Tim,

I'm a bigger fan of Sly Stone and Curtis than Stevie. I listen to their albums a lot more, certainly. There's A Riot Goin' On is better than any Stevie Wonder album. And, while I don't limit Stevie Wonder's greatness to Superstition, it's this one, unique achievement that elevates him to "made angels weep" status.

On my continuing quest to find Superstition's equal, Running Away et al were on the list. But majestic as some of those grooves are - and I include Curtis' and Isaac Hayes' finest moments, too - that pattern (I am disregarding lyrics etc) in Superstition is something else. It has the divine about it. It goes beyond a great band playing well together. It's like lightning striking a baby's penis. It defies belief and will almost certainly never happen again.

My feelings about Prince? Imagine a chorus of compressed trumpets and processed guitars going "meh."

NerblyBear wrote:James Brown's band from the Sixties, which included Bootsy Collins and that "Chank" guitar player, is one of the tightest, most awe-inspiring rock and roll groups I've ever encountered.

Ray Charles shits and pisses on everyone I've mentioned here. He's an American classic.

You have no fucking idea what your talking about do you?

run joe run wrote:It's like lightning striking a baby's penis.

Happens more often then you think.