this is a tough one. i'll talk about some songs, mainly from the 68-72 era.

sympathy for the devil: this song wore off on me a while ago. but i think someone needed to write it. nc.

under my thumb: misogynist CRAP.
brown sugar: racist, misogynist CRAP.
bitch: as far as i can make out the lyrics, it's not actually misogynist. the riff is good, but seeing as they took it from "get ready", i'll just go ahead and file this one as crap.

monkey man: pretty good spy music intro, then it goes to pieces. crap.

ventilator blues: good and gritty. nc.

jumpin' jack flash: my favorite archetypal stones song. does what i think they are generally trying to do, a rock classic. nc

salt of the earth, country honk, tumblin' dice, you can't always get what you want, shine a light, etc.: what's this crap? can you stop with the choirs, the fake accents, the gospel singers?

memo from turner: nc, particularly for the line "you'll still be in the circus when i'm laughing in my grave". i also like some lines from let it bleed, blahblahblah.


overall? influential crap that has notable moments of nc.

Any band that puts out a record half as good as "Between the Buttons" is not crap.

kerble wrote:

Brett Eugene Ralph wrote:The Beatles were cute. They were never dangerous, sleazy, creepy, or scary.

BER! you're full of shit!

creepy:
"Maxwell's Silver hammer"- a demented song about a murderer set to 'cute' music, or "Revolution No. 9," which is just creepy.

The contrast of "cute" music and "demented" lyrics does not guarantee a "Sunday Morning." There's a reason Steve Martin ended up singing this song.

"Revolution No. 9" is what we call "a failed experiment." If it was anybody but The Beatles doing that crap, no one would even bother to listen to it.

I am right; you are wrong.

dangerous:
"Helter Skelter" is more raw and visceral than ANY rolling stones throwaway rocker.

Okay, if "Helter Skelter" is indeed "more raw and visceral than ANY rolling stones throwaway rocker" that makes it more raw and visceral than "She's So Cold" or "Mixed Emotions" or Dance Little Sister." But it is in no way more raw and visceral than the many, many Stones songs that are NOT throwaway rockers--like all of the songs I mentioned in my previous post, for example.

I am right; you are wrong.

"I Want You (She's So Heavy)" is tremendous as a rocker. It doesn't have to be balls out to do so. Similar is the understated heavy guitar in "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" (in the coda).

These are great, majestic, beautiful songs. I don't know if they're truly scary, but certainly that riff in "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" is pretty creepy. So...

You are right; I am wrong.

The whole fucking second side of Abbey Road is a triumph of 'dangerous' song writing. when have the Stones done something unexpected? never?

Well, if you think the Stones are merely a bar band, you wouldn't expect them to do much of anything, now would you?

You've said nothing substantive to prove or disprove the "danger" inherent in side 2 of Abbey Road. Since when did "unexpected" and "dangerous" become synonomous? I didn't expect Alanis Morrisette to rerecord her entire Jagged Little Pill record acoustically, but there was not a goddamn thing dangerous about her decision to do so.

We'll call this one a draw.

please do point out their groundbreaking bar rock.

If there are any bar bands who sound like "Gimme Shelter," "Prodigal Son," or "Coming Down Again," "Stray Cat Blues," "Let It Loose," or "Moonlight Mile," none of which are boogie rockers (which is what I'm assuming you and your pal Steve mean by "bar band" or "bar rock"), then that's one bar I'd like to go to. It's fine if you don't appreciate Chuck Berry-derived boogie woogie "pinky rock," but you'd have to be willfully ignorant to think that the Stones' entire body of work consists of nothing more than this. What about "She's a Rainbow," which my buddy Mick described as "the Lucky Charms box come to life"? Where's the bar band in that?

I'm right; you and Steve are wrong.

sleazy:
"Why don't we do it in the road"

You're right; I'm wrong.

scary:
listen to "Glass Onion"- it's scary how fucking terrible that song is.

You're right about that song and "Love Me Do" and "Rocky Raccoon" and "Hey Jude"; I'm wrong.

the Beatles eventually turned into artists, Rolling Stones never got past bar band.

What, exactly, defines a "bar band"? A band that plays in bars? I think it's safe to say that the Stones "got past" that. And art, of course, is in the eye of the beholder. "Gimme Shelter," by my estimation, is the greatest "rock" song of all time, though I like "Walk Away Renee" and "I Want You Back" (neither of which are "rock" songs) slightly better.

When, exactly, did The Beatles "turn into artists"? And what about their creative metamorphosis sets them apart from The Rolling Stones? Both bands started as R & B/rock & roll cover bands. Both began to write their own songs, adding increasingly complex arrangements and production techniques, stretching the boundaries of rock & roll while retaining the spirit of the music(s) that initially influenced them. Both became very successful and produced lots of really great records. But...

One gave rise to the New York Dolls while the other gave rise to E.L.O. But I guess that E.L.O would qualify as "artists" (they got cellos!) while the Dolls do not, huh?

I'm right; you're wrong.

My goal was not to slander The Beatles, a band I like a lot (more now than at any other time in my life) or to spur a Beatles vs. Stones debate; my goal was to present the theory that The Rolling Stones spearheaded the creation of a much bigger, meaner, more foreboding kind of popular music than anyone who'd come before them. Tim Midgett said basically the same thing--he just didn't utter the hallowed name of The Beatles in doing so, but he implied it, did he not?

I'm right; you're wrong.

NC, WF 9

Don't overthink it, get hammered and listen to "Who's Driving Your Plane" or "Silver Train" or "Loving Cup"...you'll either like it or you won't.

I was born 1966. When I was 15 I really liked the Stones, especially the things they did between 1968 and 71. I was pretty excitet when they toured Germany in 1982 and I went to see them in Cologne. It was horrible. I realised that Rock'n'Roll wasn't meant to be played in stadiums. I'm still grateful for the Stones to drive me into the arms of crap little Indie Bands who belt out some hidous racket at the semi legal venue around the corner and only charge three Euros.
That said, I still think Child of the Moon is a nice song.
Gruss
d

"I Want You (She's So Heavy)"

I just heard this for the first time in years on the radio, couple weeks ago.

What a fucking great song. Destroys everything else on Abbey Road.

Tim Midgett said basically the same thing--he just didn't utter the hallowed name of The Beatles in doing so, but he implied it, did he not?

I think the same thing, whether or not I implied it.

The Beatles are overrated. They were still an excellent band, I have to admit. It's just that they were not hardly ALWAYS an excellent band.

And their music was rarely particularly "rock" and never menacing, which is what you're getting at.

fwiw, BER, I voted Not Crap. I'll voice in on your above post when I have some more minutes.

chers,



Faiz

During my last year of high school and my first year of college, I listened to nothing but the Rolling Stones.

BER, I agree completely with everything you said (especially about Jagger being the third or fourth most important member). I'm glad you pointed out the Iggy connection. When I started listening to the Stooges in high school, my first thought was "badass! the Stones! But more demented!" Sorry punk rockers, there's a well-paved road with the Stones at one end and punk rock at the other.

"Monkey Man" is THE Stones song. And if you don't like it, you are suspect. Some badass playing all around, especially the twinkling piano right at the end (why the fuck didn't they make that guy an "official" member?) and Mr. Charlie fucking Watts.

Fuckers, the Stones did it all. I kind of burned out on them a few years ago but am slowly reacquainting myself.

tmidgett wrote:

"I Want You (She's So Heavy)"

I just heard this for the first time in years on the radio, couple weeks ago.

What a fucking great song. Destroys everything else on Abbey Road.

I came to the Beatles albums late in the game (not until after my teens barring SPLHCB & greatest hits/radio). Abbey Road was the first album I listened to front-to-back.

Once I heard this song, I recognized just exactly how much music that I enjoy listening to is deeply indebted to and a result of this song.

Post Rock! You would not exist!

Goth Rock! You would not exist!

----


I still only like Beggar's Banquet


Hey! The Stones are touring again!






(stolen from TinyMixTapes.com)