Premier Rock Forum

I really try to separate the art from the artist. It isn't easy and there are extreme exceptions but I have to. If someone's art truly means something to you, you don't just throw it away. For example, the music of Husker Du hit me at a very young and impressionable age. Like it or not, it is a key component of the personality I now walk around with 30 years later.

Suppose I find out tomorrow that all three members of Husker Du were Nazi child molesters (they weren't) during the time they made all that great music. What do I do? Well, now I have to somehow integrate that awful reality into my love for them because I'm not erasing their music from my life. I've found beauty and truth in Husker Du's art that resonate deeply in me; if I discover that they're terrible people it doesn't mean that that truth and beauty no longer exist.

I don't have such a hard time compartmentalizing art and artist.

But I also don't have any trouble taking a hardline stance when it comes to nazi child molesters.
Which for me means not promoting or supporting them, at all.

Do I think people should burn their records/movies/books when somebody does something terrible?
No. Do I think the radio or MTV should stop playing them, absolutely!
It's not about cancelling anybody, but why would you knowingly continue to support and promote anybody doing things you are in clear opposition of?

When racists or pederasts are disproportionality wealthy to the class of people consuming their shit, cutting of the money that fuels their lawyers and lifestyles is absolutely paramount.

brownreasontolive wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:27 am It's not about cancelling anybody, but why would you knowingly continue to support and promote anybody doing things you are in clear opposition of?

All there is to it. Don't give them money, and don't promote them, but if their work hits the spot then by all means enjoy that.

I apologize, my wording was over exaggerated. If I discovered any band were actual Nazi child molesters their records would certainly go in the trash. But I was also referring to a group that broke up over 30 years ago whose albums I already own and would probably never listen to again.

Would I defend their behavior? Absolutely not, doesn't matter who they are.

Would I have any respect left for them as humans? Nope.

Would I spend more money on anything bearing their name? No way.

But I can't ignore that they're part of who I am. And what does that say about me?

Where is that line drawn? Great art is sometimes created by deeply flawed and contradictory people. I find extreme right-wing ideology abhorrent but I still love the Ramones.

Isadore Nabi wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:36 pm If anyone has any dirt on Ian MacKaye, keep that shit to yourselves.

I heard he drank a beer once

I suppose something like the Ramones really requires getting into the nuances of all this crap and the varying shades of grey: For starters, you've got a band w/two Jewish guys using Nazi imagery in a funny or provocative way. (See also: the Dictators.) Johnny was definitely a right-winger, sure. Joey, not so much, although I seem to think he had a brief bout of Reagan fandom before that song was written. I might be wrong, though. And Dee Dee was basically just an addict whose politics were all over the place. No clue about the various drummers, but from the sound of things, Marky might be rather sane.

To be honest, I'd take one look at those guys and how they lived their lives and think, "Who the fuck cares what the Ramones' political views are? These dudes are kind of a mess." Why would anyone expect coherent or responsible politics out of such people? (I mean, it'd be a totally nice surprise and all. But... )

The first three albums remain fucking great, though.

tonyballzee wrote: I apologize, my wording was over exaggerated. If I discovered any band were actual Nazi child molesters their records would certainly go in the trash. But I was also referring to a group that broke up over 30 years ago whose albums I already own and would probably never listen to again.

Sorry, I totally wasn't using your wording to pick on what you were saying. I just took your example and ran with it.
I also probably had steam coming out the ears from reading the groupie thread - maybe should have checked my tone.

tonyballzee wrote: But I can't ignore that they're part of who I am. And what does that say about me?

I think that you can't ignore it says something positive about you.
You are self aware enough to admit that art made by shit people is part of your world or your education or life experience.
As a result of confronting that:

tonyballzee wrote: Would I defend their behavior? Absolutely not, doesn't matter who they are.
Would I have any respect left for them as humans? Nope.
Would I spend more money on anything bearing their name? No way.

I think this is a really important conversation, and it's too often reframed as a conversation about "free speech" or book burning/throwing art in the trash, or something. What is important is that we take a hard look at how this shit has shaped us.
You're absolutely right that great art is often made by deeply flawed people, and once in a lifetime you may see those folks hold themselves accountable.
But otherwise I think that we have to pick up the slack and take some level responsibility to discuss these people, their art, and the effect it has on the health of our communities. Not cancelling, but meaningful discourse on how it shapes our thinking and our behaviour.

joe_lmr wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:02 am

Isadore Nabi wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:36 pm If anyone has any dirt on Ian MacKaye, keep that shit to yourselves.

I heard he drank a beer once

Uncle Al said he was hammered during the Pailhead sessions!

No.

brownreasontolive wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:38 pm

joe_lmr wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:02 am

Isadore Nabi wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:36 pm If anyone has any dirt on Ian MacKaye, keep that shit to yourselves.

I heard he drank a beer once

Uncle Al said he was hammered during the Pailhead sessions!

I love Ian's account of how Al would "go to the bathroom" all the time and he was like "I know what you're doing, just don't bullshit me about it."