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Mazec wrote:

Will Barnett wrote: In most of his songs U-God advocates cocaine, degrades women and builds up his own idiotic persona. On Ghostface's "Poisonous darts" he discusses getting women addicted to cocaine and becoming his mistresses. I'm pretty sure this is a reoccurring theme of his.

But what is there in this life that *doesn't* advocate cocaine, degradation of women and the establishment of one's own, idiotic persona? To say nothing of tricking out female coke addicts and making them your sex slaves...

I'm not quite sure you're saying here but if I've read you correctly you're saying there is no OBJECTIVE, MORAL reason why not to do anything. I concede that point. But what in this like *doesn't* advocate putting on clown make up and dancing all nice to ICP?

Either way it's a choice as to what to endorse and I don't personally endorse either. So I don't and try to avoid artist who set up personas that do such.

Will Barnett wrote:But what in this like *doesn't* advocate putting on clown make up and dancing all nice to ICP?

It makes you look like an idiot, they aren't clever at all and they're pretty shitty.

I am absolutely amazed that anyone on this forum is defending the deep, dank well of shit that is the back catalogue of the Insane Clown Posse. Have we covered Public Enemy yet? Grandmaster Flash? Del Tha Funkee Homosapien? Jurrasic 5? Ice Cube? Atmosphere? Buck 65? Socalled? Busdriver? Subtitle? Subtle? Cadence Weapon?

If we haven't covered that, then I suggest we take a few pages where we don't talk about the Insane Fucking Clown Posse.

Johnny C wrote:

Will Barnett wrote:But what in this like *doesn't* advocate putting on clown make up and dancing all nice to ICP?

It makes you look like an idiot, they aren't clever at all and they're pretty shitty.

I am absolutely amazed that anyone on this forum is defending the deep, dank well of shit that is the back catalogue of the Insane Clown Posse. Have we covered Public Enemy yet? Grandmaster Flash? Del Tha Funkee Homosapien? Jurrasic 5? Ice Cube? Atmosphere? Buck 65? Socalled? Busdriver? Subtitle? Subtle? Cadence Weapon?

If we haven't covered that, then I suggest we take a few pages where we don't talk about the Insane Fucking Clown Posse.

I think they're very interesting. I loathe their music but they manage to personify almost EVERY NEGATIVE ASPECT OF HIP HOP. They're a deconstruction, an extreme. I don't defend them, if you've read my previous posts I've called hip hop crap on account of them. What I've been contending is while embodying the abject shittiness of a genre they've made good music based on the criteria of the genre. I believe strongly, at least for me personally, this largely discredits the genre. Feel free to disagree, but have you ever listened to ICP with a completely open mind? Maybe if you did you'd like them.

I have, actually. My old bassist used to like them. That was how I figured out they were crap.

Will Barnett wrote:Are you serious?!? Wu Tang have many more negative songs than positive ones! Many of the songs of Wu Tang forever are EXTREMELY misogynistic and almost all of them advocate violence and or materialism at the expense of other (especially when Method Man shows up I've noticed). Only Built for Cuban Linx's entire theme is grossly materialistic/violent. The Gravediggaz have lyrics VERY VERY similar to ICP in content, although the former has better technique.

the gravediggaz rule. anyhow, you're actually quite right about money being high on the wu tang agenda. before they released 36 chambers, rza approached them and said something along the lines of "be ready to yield the ultimate creative decisions to me, give me the end say on things, trust my decisions, and i promise that in 5 years we will be on top of the hip hop world, commercially".

fast forward 5 years: "forever" is #1 on the billboard 200, ultimately going on to sell over 8 million copies. so concludes the 5 year plan, which explains why rza didn't produce entire solo LP's for wu artists after that.

i guess that all doesn't matter so much because their music is so good anyways, so what if they also have these big-money/fame dreams of being "on top"?

but something i heard recently really stirred up my opinions. during the recent recording of the upcoming wu tang album, 8 diagrams, rza had been recording method man in the studio when raekwon walked in, chuckled, and said "meth that sounds like some black eyed peas bullshit," to which rza interjected and said "man, black eyed peas sold X million records, you better be trying to sound like them."

???!!!

The Gravediggaz are almost half Stetsasonic. So I'm comfortable with laughing along with them, plus the first album is plain awesome.

Will Barnett wrote:Are you serious?!? Wu Tang have many more negative songs than positive ones!

As soon as you categorize hip-hop into "negative" and "positive" you've lost your way. Let's make that perfectly plain. It's an idiotic fucking schema to begin with, and one that only makes sense in an environment of total disconnect with the music.

Wu-Tang is about playing with words, telling ghetto stories, and battle rap (i.e. elaborate boasting, threats, and insults). 36 Chambers was completely free of anything that I would characterize as "negative" should I be as crappy as to use such foolish terms.

Only Built for Cuban Linx's entire theme is grossly materialistic/violent.

Only Built 4 Cuban Linx is a mafia movie, down to the adoption of additional nicknames and alter egos. It's about telling stories and creating environments and images.

Fuckhead.

The Gravediggaz have lyrics VERY VERY similar to ICP in content, although the former has better technique.

Gravediggaz is a horror movie. ICP is a shitty horror movie.

Antero wrote:

Will Barnett wrote:Are you serious?!? Wu Tang have many more negative songs than positive ones!

As soon as you categorize hip-hop into "negative" and "positive" you've lost your way. Let's make that perfectly plain. It's an idiotic fucking schema to begin with, and one that only makes sense in an environment of total disconnect with the music.

Wu-Tang is about playing with words, telling ghetto stories, and battle rap (i.e. elaborate boasting, threats, and insults). 36 Chambers was completely free of anything that I would characterize as "negative" should I be as crappy as to use such foolish terms.

Only Built for Cuban Linx's entire theme is grossly materialistic/violent.

Only Built 4 Cuban Linx is a mafia movie, down to the adoption of additional nicknames and alter egos. It's about telling stories and creating environments and images.

Fuckhead.

The Gravediggaz have lyrics VERY VERY similar to ICP in content, although the former has better technique.

Gravediggaz is a horror movie. ICP is a shitty horror movie.

I agree it was a shitty schema -- with positive and negative I was trying to say "things that I actively respect" and "things that disgust me to the point where it affects my ability to enjoy the music" most music is pretty neutral which would have been lumped with "positive" I did not articulate myself well at all.

yeah, I know about RZA's "5 year plan" -- I believe that's what he called it. Really dig the Stalin reference. That doesn't seem like it would be conducive to good art but whatever. Also thank you BClark for relating that anecdote about Method Man.

I personally feel that since hip hop is made with such an eye on commerce it loses a lot, probably most, of it's artistic integrity. I also am not impressed with battle rhymes much at all. They strike me as silly and more akin to a type of sport than a type of artistic expression. For lack a better analogy it's like poker, and the audience is supposed to watch people boast and bullshit and do the best they can with a situation. The hand of cards, or the beat. With both situations the boasting and bullshitting ARE MEANS TO AN END. The player wants to win, the rapper wants to make it big. The music I like is generally the end in and of itself. Rap appeals to a different aesthetic I think, so no, I do not understand it at all on that level.

When my previous belief is coupled with most hip hop disgusting me I do not like it as a genre. I feel the rappers are striking poses they believe will sell and trying harder to make money than express themselves. Oh well, if listening to hip hop makes you happy do so. I don't want it to seem I'm trying to predicate my taste on you. Rap makes me less happy on both a guttural level and for the more intellectual reasons I outlined above.

Will Barnett wrote:When my previous belief is coupled with most hip hop disgusting me I do not like it as a genre. I feel the rappers are striking poses they believe will sell and trying harder to make money than express themselves. Oh well, if listening to hip hop makes you happy do so. I don't want it to seem I'm trying to predicate my taste on you. Rap makes me less happy on both a guttural level and for the more intellectual reasons I outlined above.

I don't know how you can take the ICP to be an exceptional example of a genre you don't like when you're so averse to monetary goals and merchandise orientated "art," because the ICP is probably the best example of a band milking their fans for every red cent they own. They're a marketing vehicle, not a band.

Heliotropic wrote:

Will Barnett wrote:When my previous belief is coupled with most hip hop disgusting me I do not like it as a genre. I feel the rappers are striking poses they believe will sell and trying harder to make money than express themselves. Oh well, if listening to hip hop makes you happy do so. I don't want it to seem I'm trying to predicate my taste on you. Rap makes me less happy on both a guttural level and for the more intellectual reasons I outlined above.

I don't know how you can take the ICP to be an exceptional example of a genre you don't like when you're so averse to monetary goals and merchandise orientated "art," because the ICP is probably the best example of a band milking their fans for every red cent they own. They're a marketing vehicle, not a band.

funny thing about ICP... their collaborations are proof that rap, along with metal, is the territory where good artists have no problem collaborating with terrible artists.

tech n9ne collaborated with ICP and hed pe
cypress hill collaborated with ICP
bone thugs n harmony collaborated (and toured) with ICP
david bowie collaborated with trent reznor
max cavalera collaborated with fred durst
max cavalera and mike patton collaborated with the dude from korn
ice cube collaborated with korn

needless to say, the artists on the left are the good artists, while the artists on the right are the unlistenable.