Burial, maker of music

Crap
Total votes: 31 (69%)
Not crap
Total votes: 14 (31%)
Total votes: 45

Musical concern: Burial

81
Watched the Techno Brega thing. Don't see what it has to do with any of this, other than it's another example of the pastiche technique. What was I supposed to get out of it? That there are some street vendors selling it?

Do you have the impression that there is an economic component to my criticism? I don't believe there is one.

And yes, I hate Brazilian electronic club music too, despite the volcanic hotness of some of those women.
steve albini
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
Quicumque quattuor feles possidet insanus est.

Musical concern: Burial

82
sparky wrote:I checked out a song of his on Seeqpod: Southern Comfort.


Not that bad, in the sense that if I started watching a movie and it was playing over the beginning credits, where I immediately imagined a piece like this being, I wouldn't walk out/switch it off solely because it was playing over the beginning credits.
Last edited by lemur68_Archive on Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tocharian wrote:Cheese fries vs nonexistence. Duh.

Musical concern: Burial

83
Re: Tecno Brega

For me, it just raised questions about electronic music in general.

You were talking about electronica's "scavenging" aspect...there was just something gross about taking a song and just replacing a couple elements with a ProTools-type program. I want to be open-minded to the whole electronic music thing, but I can't help but view most of that stuff as trash culture.

Maybe it was irrelevant. :cry:

Do you feel smarter now, though?
kerble wrote:Ernest Goes to Jail In Your Ass

Musical concern: Burial

85
tmidgett wrote:
tmidgett wrote:
So, those of you who are dismissive of this music: do you think it is:

Corrupt?
Are the motivations of the artist (wholly, specifically, or generally) other than those of most creative artists--to express themselves and elaborate on their feelings and thoughts through use of sound?


No, I have no reason to assume that this is the case. Nor do I care. People with genuine intentions make art all of the time, and that doesn't mean it's good art. As Wilde said, "All bad poetry is genuine." I just saw a film called Margot at the Wedding with my sister and it was womanly, sentimental trash with no brains and lots of pointless crying. I'm sure it came from a genuine place, too.

Incomplete? Is this music inadequate (wholly, specifically, or generally) to meet its aims, whatever they are?


Can't really judge, since I'm not sure what this music's aims are in the first place.

Dishonest? Is the artist (wholly, specifically, or generally) a charlatan? Does he misrepresent himself IN HIS ART somehow?


Again, I have no reason to assume this. Can't suspect him of dishonesty.


Uncreative? Is the artist (wholly, specifically, or generally) crippled by a lack of creativity? Is what he is doing not creative? Are the tools with which he works possibly used to aid creation, or is the artist fighting a losing battle? What if his work subsists only of sound as played and found sounds that are not musical samples? Does that make a difference somehow?


Yeah, I think this starts to hit on the issue. I would say he has no artistic talent instead of saying he's uncreative, though.

I don't see any reason why this sort of music couldn't be fantastic. There's a bunch of good electronic music out there. This just isn't it.


It's totally possible to think this music is creative, honest enough, complete and pure in its way, and still crap. I want to hear about which components of that mean something to you and how you think it falls short additionally, if in fact you think it's crap.


I think you've hit the nail on the head. None of this matters. The only thing that matters is aesthetic power, a.k.a. talent. Well, no that's not totally true. Those things do matter, but in the end they can't make up for a lack of talent.
Gay People Rock

Musical concern: Burial

86
Great discussion. :D

In my estimation there are as many hopelessly untalented cock-rock Nickelback cover bands as there are people who download Sony ACID, start clicking and painting and all of a sudden call themselves a 'producer'. At the end of the day while I may not enjoy either, people are making 'music' in some regard, which is probably better than not at all (at least in enriching their own lives).


Steve wrote:Some electronic artists are obviously quite skilled and accomplished. So are some pickpockets.


Very true. Although sampling can help bring a song to a new audience (as can cover songs), in my mind there is a big difference between a musician that uses electronics/technology in combination with actual musical skill and someone that is merely sampling, clicking, copying and pasting.

An example of an intensely complex and laborious electronic album to illustrate the point is "This Binary Universe" by Brian Transeau. I'm extremely glad I had no idea who he was before I listened to this album because I would have likely totally dismissed what turned into one of my favorite albums of last year. There was as much blood, sweat and tears put into this anything else I can think of. And as a music lover I can appreciate passion like that, regardless of the genre.

For example:
-Composed specifically for 5.1

-"Real" guitar, piano, bass and drums etc. played by the artist.

-A song written entirely in Csound, taking over 6 months

-3 songs featuring a 110 piece orchestra, scored and orchestrated by the artist.


-Extensive use of hardware circuit bending to create new sounds.

-The artist started their own software company and wrote thousands of lines of code designing custom effects for the album. This isn't any SynthEdit shit either. For example, "BreakTweaker", the first ever surround sound drum machine, "note figures of 2,048th and 1,024th notes that spline down into 8th note triplets exponentially over a dotted quarter note. And all of this granulation takes place in surround sound." etc.

-Interesting compositional ideas like creating songs based on the golden ratio, mathematical proportioning based on the natural growth of plants, compressing the entire rhythm track of a 10 minute song to 4 bars etc.

-New techniques like "nano-correcting", i.e. taking a random sound like rain and time-correcting each hit to a mathematical grid so that it takes on a rhythmic form and pattern but retains a chaotic nature

Its hard to squeeze 5.1 onto YouTube, but it gives an idea.

This Binary Universe Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaStfr8r7SQ

This Binary Universe Interview from M-Audio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGG6T-e0B30

Good Morning Kaia (reminds me a lot of Sigur Ros)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuNaL74B5k4
1.618
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmF_l2WwnVc

Musical concern: Burial

87
steve wrote:I don't think a laundry list of qualities will ever convince me that something is or isn't crap, but like you said, it's your question, and if it's illuminating to others, good enough.


I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

I'm trying to get at the root of why most modern electronic music is meaningless to me, and this, when I hear, like, five minutes of it, at least does _something_.

Here's what I can come up with:

I can't relate to certain kinds of music because I am unfamiliar with them and have not learned how to listen to them. I can sense this disconnect most of the time.

Nerbly Bear wrote:Can't really judge, since I'm not sure what this music's aims are in the first place.


When I feel this way, I take it as a clue that I am missing something.

Example: I've spent a lot of time listening to classical music over the last year or so, and I can hear things that I couldn't hear before. Always thought Mendelssohn was a total nerd, but I can distinguish the pro-forma bits from the (pretty good) parts where he was writing for himself. Always 'hated' opera, but there's a reason Nessun Dorma is ubiquitous: it's awesome. A lot of it is awesome. If I don't take to it as a genre, I can see now that the failing is largely mine, not opera's.

However. All of that music is complex music. Technical requirements aside, it's rich--there's usually a lot going on. Not living with it for a while is an easy way to not get it.

Modern electronic music is not complex music, by and large. It is not generally musically complex, and it is not generally emotionally complex.

More important to me, however, than complexity is nuance. Most classical music is highly nuanced. It seems to me that most modern electronic music is not nuanced. It functions primarily as mood music, and narrowly focused mood music at that.

Mood music is distinct from more substantial music in that it requires a contribution from the listener. More substantial music can win you over--it may even require you to succumb to it in a way. Mood music comes to you, and you either take to it (b/c you can relate to it in some way) or you do not.

Rick Reuben said that he considers modern electronic music to be second-tier music. What I am realizing is that whatever I take to be mood music, I consider that to be second-tier music. It's not nuanced, not complex. It may or may not be technically sophisticated, but its aims are readily apprehendable and easily realized.

The key is whether or not it strikes some chord with the listener. And that chord is going to be struck instantaneously, or not. It's not complex enough in any way to be missing something.

Dub--mood music. Not first-tier music (instrumental reggae is not necessarily dub--Augustus Pablo, for inst). Love Lee Perry, but he was at his best working on records of actual songs (Congos' _Heart of the Congos_). I could listen to dub all day and all night.

Martin Denny--mood music. Not first-tier music. Indifferent to it. Unfailingly easy on the ears, but it is not a soundtrack to any part of the life that I have lived or (crucially) wish to have lived.

Most modern electronic music is mood music. Not first-tier music. I am as indifferent to it as I am to Martin Denny, except when I feel that it is trivial, overhyped, and/or an aural imposition, in which case I actively dislike it.

I am indifferent or disinclined to like it b/c I in no way relate to the environment from which it came, and w/o that relationship, it has no great meaning. I don't need to have an intimate relationsip with the environment from which more substantial music comes, b/c it creates some part of that environment w/in itself. Most of the modern electronic music I have heard doesn't even try to do that.

Burial, the instant I heard it, I was, like, "that's late-night, bleary, walking thru a semi-sketchy part of town after being out all night." Knew instantly what he was doing. Then I read the article, and he basically says that is what he is trying to do.

It's a narrow goal. Too narrow to add up to much in the end, perhaps. But he meets it, and my question to myself is, "Is that enough?"

It's enough for him to be critically accepted--critics loooooove it when they can get their minds completely around something the first time they hear it. It's much easier to get a handle on something when it is narrowly focused and not widely ambitious--when its ambitions are easily understood and met.

I think it's enough for a soundtrack, or a perfume commercial. I haven't heard nearly enough of it to know if there's something else going on.

Hence, this C/NC.

Thanks.

Musical concern: Burial

88
Okay, I just listened to 30 minutes of this douchebag's bleary techno crackle/mumble, and all three kinds of his music (tracks with movie samples, tracks with diva samples and tracks with just mumble drums and crackles) are trivial.

His vocabulary may be different from some of his peers, but it is as limited as a small child's. Perhaps this encapsulates something about the clubbing lifestyle that I'm ignorant of/immune to, and if so, this reinforces my generally low opinion of these people.

Someone mentioned writing a Burial algorithm earlier. Would probably take about five lines and one database call. Doesn't even need a tempo variable.
steve albini
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
Quicumque quattuor feles possidet insanus est.

Musical concern: Burial

89
tmidgett wrote:
Nerbly Bear wrote:Can't really judge, since I'm not sure what this music's aims are in the first place.


When I feel this way, I take it as a clue that I am missing something.

Example: I've spent a lot of time listening to classical music over the last year or so, and I can hear things that I couldn't hear before. Always thought Mendelssohn was a total nerd, but I can distinguish the pro-forma bits from the (pretty good) parts where he was writing for himself. Always 'hated' opera, but there's a reason Nessun Dorma is ubiquitous: it's awesome. A lot of it is awesome. If I don't take to it as a genre, I can see now that the failing is largely mine, not opera's.

However. All of that music is complex music. Technical requirements aside, it's rich--there's usually a lot going on. Not living with it for a while is an easy way to not get it.

Modern electronic music is not complex music, by and large. It is not generally musically complex, and it is not generally emotionally complex.

More important to me, however, than complexity is nuance. Most classical music is highly nuanced. It seems to me that most modern electronic music is not nuanced. It functions primarily as mood music, and narrowly focused mood music at that.

Mood music is distinct from more substantial music in that it requires a contribution from the listener. More substantial music can win you over--it may even require you to succumb to it in a way. Mood music comes to you, and you either take to it (b/c you can relate to it in some way) or you do not.

Rick Reuben said that he considers modern electronic music to be second-tier music. What I am realizing is that whatever I take to be mood music, I consider that to be second-tier music. It's not nuanced, not complex. It may or may not be technically sophisticated, but its aims are readily apprehendable and easily realized.

The key is whether or not it strikes some chord with the listener. And that chord is going to be struck instantaneously, or not. It's not complex enough in any way to be missing something.

Dub--mood music. Not first-tier music (instrumental reggae is not necessarily dub--Augustus Pablo, for inst). Love Lee Perry, but he was at his best working on records of actual songs (Congos' _Heart of the Congos_). I could listen to dub all day and all night.

Martin Denny--mood music. Not first-tier music. Indifferent to it. Unfailingly easy on the ears, but it is not a soundtrack to any part of the life that I have lived or (crucially) wish to have lived.

Most modern electronic music is mood music. Not first-tier music. I am as indifferent to it as I am to Martin Denny, except when I feel that it is trivial, overhyped, and/or an aural imposition, in which case I actively dislike it.

I am indifferent or disinclined to like it b/c I in no way relate to the environment from which it came, and w/o that relationship, it has no great meaning. I don't need to have an intimate relationsip with the environment from which more substantial music comes, b/c it creates some part of that environment w/in itself. Most of the modern electronic music I have heard doesn't even try to do that.

Burial, the instant I heard it, I was, like, "that's late-night, bleary, walking thru a semi-sketchy part of town after being out all night." Knew instantly what he was doing. Then I read the article, and he basically says that is what he is trying to do.

It's a narrow goal. Too narrow to add up to much in the end, perhaps. But he meets it, and my question to myself is, "Is that enough?"

It's enough for him to be critically accepted--critics loooooove it when they can get their minds completely around something the first time they hear it. It's much easier to get a handle on something when it is narrowly focused and not widely ambitious--when its ambitions are easily understood and met.

I think it's enough for a soundtrack, or a perfume commercial. I haven't heard nearly enough of it to know if there's something else going on.

Hence, this C/NC.

Thanks.


I think your analysis of Burial's approach is spot-on. He strives to create mood music that nevertheless fails to provoke those moods into any really passionate mindset. Almost as though he were taking it for granted that music should not provoke such emotions, that it should just stay "cool" and "hip". While I can appreciate this to a limited extent, this sort of attitude usually makes for disposable stuff.

I agree with your discussion of classical music. I was the exact same way. I though it was boring, dentist-office stuff until I really got obsessed with Beethoven and Stravinsky. Then it took on a whole new dimension, and it was like my ignorance and prejudice against classical music was shown up for the stupid approach it was.

I fully admit to not understanding a bunch of different approaches out there. Lots of people respond to music that I just don't have any feel for.
Gay People Rock

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