Premier Rock Forum

chet wrote:givemenoughrope, there is no universal law that dictates that jazz music is more complex/difficult to play/meaningful/intellectually stimulating than rock music.

There are plenty of jazz pieces that are simple, or without much meaning, or just plain stupid, just like in rock music.

It seems to me -- not a jazz musician, but whatever -- that jazz is much harder to play than rock music is. I'm not disrespecting rock musicians when I say that. Personally, I listen to about equivalent amounts of material from both genres. But just look at someone like Nels Cline, who plays both jazz- and rock-guitar. Way more skilled and versatile than 99% of rock guitarists. Same for John McLaughlin. Or Duane Denison. Jazz musicians *have* to practice ten to twelve hours a day just to get their chops into working order.

Again, I don't think technical skill is the be-all, end-all. Look at Ricky Wilson. His playing just as great as Cline's, in its own unique way. And he didn't even know how to tune his guitar, for Chrissake. That's the sort of off-hand brilliance that jazz today just could never produce in a million years, even if it tried.

But there is something wrong with a system in which Mike Watt has to slave away for little money, while someone like Wynton Marsalis is feted ad nauseam for playing music which is canned, stagnant and uninspired. Like someone was coloring in a coloring book, careful not to bleed his Crayola-spew outside of a handed-down set of lines and curves.

Then again, that's probably why there's so much quality rock music out there right now and such a small amount of interesting jazz being played today. Jazz is almost a dead genre at this point. Whatever auspicious circumstances were able to make it such a towering force in the '40's thru the '70's have been attenuated to such a degree that the lion's share of people who "love jazz" (like myself) haven't even listened to any albums post-Bitches Brew. And there's something real, real wrong w/ a situation like that.

Rick Reuben wrote:

NerblyBear wrote:But there is something wrong with a system in which Mike Watt has to slave away for little money, while someone like Wynton Marsalis is feted ad nauseam for playing music which is canned, stagnant and uninspired.

Wrong with what system? It's called free consumer choice. You're against that? You want Wynton Marsalis listeners to be forced to subsidize the career of Mike Watt?

Also, Mike Watt is playing bass. Mike Watt chose to play bass. He's nobody's 'slave'. Mike Watt chose his musical tastes and chose his musical career path.

steve wrote:
People who don't even like your music feel compelled to give you money to play it.

I, for one feel compelled to kick them in the balls.

Rick Reuben wrote: You want Wynton Marsalis listeners to be forced to subsidize the career of Mike Watt?

Also, Mike Watt is playing bass. Mike Watt chose to play bass. He's nobody's 'slave'. Mike Watt chose his musical tastes and chose his musical career path.

I know, I was just trying to say that the two musicians' levels of cultural influence -- just leaving aside the question of musical worth -- are grossly disproportionate to their respective levels of financial success. Marsalis has been treated as a treasured representative of civilized values, while Watt's contributions -- which have been huge and lasting -- have gone virtually unrecognized by the establishment.

It seems out-of-whack. On the other hand, Watt is anti-establishment, so I'm sure he doesn't care at all. He's doing what he's passionate about.

I think Ellis is the only Marsalis that come close to being a "cultural treasure".

I always thought the sons (branford and Wynton) got a free ride.

NerblyBear wrote:On the other hand, Watt is anti-establishment, so I'm sure he doesn't care at all. He's doing what he's passionate about.

You do know about his recording on several Kelly Clarkson tunes, right?

Because that is as anti-establishment as one can get.

NerblyBear wrote:people who "love jazz" (like myself) haven't even listened to any albums post-Bitches Brew.

Flaherty/Corsano Duo

Assif Tsahar

William Parker & Hamid Drake

Powerhouse Sound

and this guy right here:




get on it..

(edit: pic)

givemenoughrope wrote:

steve wrote:I have noticed that jass musicians have it pretty easy.

Except for the whole music thing.

I don't think they're complaining either; too busy practicing.

When I am speaking here, I am talking about the bad kind of jazz. I know there is the good jazz and this does not apply. Lou Donaldson, Grant Green, etc...I am not speaking to you. You make sweet funky jazz that makes me feel good and look, there's an actual song! With parts! Melody!
I am talking about screetchy 'free jazz', shitty bullshit smooth jazz and meandering boring horseshit dinner jazz.
I find it hard to believe they practice that shit. Once you know how to make a noise with whatever instrument you are blowing into, which would take all of maybe 5 minutes, you are set. What's there to practice? The people who go to see that kind of shit or listen to records of that shit will think whatever you do is awesome.
'Oh, he rubbed the horn on his erection...what a bold artistic gesture. He's amazing'
Shit, give me a fucking horn I'll be a acclaimed jazz musician tonight.
Be bop biddle bop bip bip toot toot
See? Genius!

chet wrote:givemenoughrope, there is no universal law that dictates that jazz music is more complex/difficult to play/meaningful/intellectually stimulating than rock music.

I never even implied that at all. The discussion was about grants.

Steve says jazz musicians have it easy. Well he's never tried to play anything as challenging as "Nefertiti" by Wayne Shorter, one of the most beautiful pieces of music I've ever heard. Give it a shot, tell me it's easy. Getting a grant won't make it easier.

NerblyBear wrote:haven't even listened to any albums post-Bitches Brew. And there's something real, real wrong w/ a situation like that.

Well, there a whole hell of a lot before Bitches Brew too.

Why does everyone love Bitches Brew so much? Is it b/c it's a relatively easy listen for cleaning or driving to? Rewind Miles Davis' band about 5 years and you have some of the best music made.

Forget Bitches Brew. Get Live-Evil.

What about Tim Berne or Julius Hemphill?
Steve Lacy put out some great stuff before he died.
I just listened to album with Paul Motion, Joe Lovano and Bill Frisell on the plane.
We could sit here and list all day, but the fact is that you like classic jazz and there is nothing wrong with that. It's just that there a lot more than what you find in Borders.