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rsmurphy wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:57 am

losthighway wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:09 am This is really interesting to me and I don't think I fully understand it. Can you say more about this?

The American government and/or America has never substantially accounted for, explained, apologized, and made reparations for chattel slavery, Jim Crow, and the destruction of black families via the criminal justice system. Most, if not all of our faults rests on these issues. Framing this as I believe some on the far left do as identity politics keeps it on the back burner so as to dismantle other systems first, and the racial issues will work themselves out. It's a way of not centering black America in the conversation when it needs to be. And I think this is done partly out of the fear and discomfort with internal dialogues about race.

Too fucking right.

rsmurphy wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:57 am

losthighway wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:09 am This is really interesting to me and I don't think I fully understand it. Can you say more about this?

The American government and/or America has never substantially accounted for, explained, apologized, and made reparations for chattel slavery, Jim Crow, and the destruction of black families via the criminal justice system. Most, if not all of our faults rests on these issues. Framing this as I believe some on the far left do as identity politics keeps it on the back burner so as to dismantle other systems first, and the racial issues will work themselves out. It's a way of not centering black America in the conversation when it needs to be. And I think this is done partly out of the fear and discomfort with internal dialogues about race.

Thank you. I'm getting there. Clearly slavery and its aftermath are the original sin of our American mythology. The accounting for it has been tragically insufficient. I don't see what sane person could argue with you on that.

The other half of your point gets into identity politics, and how they work, or don't work at addressing injustice. I think of the issues you brought up as central to identity politics. Is it that they're clouded by too many other issues? Is it merely that the popular American left (i.e. garden variety "liberals") have eased up on them as talking points to keep from losing votes in a culture war?

I know I've made comments on here about addressing institutional racism through measures that focus on poverty overall instead of a race centered policy. Is that kind of thinking you're bristling at (I take zero offense if so)?

losthighway wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 1:58 pm Clearly slavery and its aftermath are the original sin of our American mythology. The accounting for it has been tragically insufficient. I don't see what sane person could argue with you on that.

IDK, man, I think I could argue for a lot of liberals and democrats who are for the status quo pre-maga life, and it's in my most humble of opinions that it is that status quo pre-maga life that upholds the system of white supremacy.

The other half of your point gets into identity politics, and how they work, or don't work at addressing injustice. I think of the issues you brought up as central to identity politics. Is it that they're clouded by too many other issues? Is it merely that the popular American left (i.e. garden variety "liberals") have eased up on them as talking points to keep from losing votes in a culture war?

See, I don't think of white supremacy and systemic racism as identity politics. Maybe I was unintentionally vague on that earlier. I often think that far left radicals would like to think of those systems of oppression as identity politics, and that led me to my original post. I'm just saying that we need to for once rip the Band-Aid off instead applying more Band-Aids.

I know I've made comments on here about addressing institutional racism through measures that focus on poverty overall instead of a race centered policy. Is that kind of thinking you're bristling at (I take zero offense if so)?

Yeah, kinda. To be clear focusing on poverty overall doesn't doesn't address generational wealth and how that wasn't afforded to black Americans, or land ownership, or health and educational discrepancies.

Sometimes I don't write and express myself so good but I basically think of America like this: the Civil War ended slavery (except for as a punishment and that's another conversation) and then the govt was just like fend for yourselves. No free therapy, no free education, no free health care, no land...just you are "free" now go and live the American dream while we constantly gaslight and put up boundaries at every turn. All of that led to all of what we are now trying to dismantle. It has nothing to do with identity politics.

A gross oversimplification but possibly helpful: there were moves towards that stuff in Reconstruction but they were challenged, undermined and blocked from the start, including by the Liberal Republicans. As far as I understand the push towards public education as we know it originated in the Reconstruction South and was then vehemently opposed, not least of which because it brought poor and working class black and white people together and gave them space to realise they had common cause. As I understand it, those are the roots of the continuing war on public education today. This period is super interesting and was so neglected in our educations. It was a failed revolution in many respects. I am no expert and have not gotten into the literature unfortunately, have mostly just gleaned what I have from podcasts and interviews.

This recent interview treats the early Reconstruction period for example:

10 people say something nice about the left before election day or I’m going to write in Bernie Sanders.

llllllllllllllllllll wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 7:41 pm I’m going to write in Bernie Sanders.

Is that a new font?

lmao

Finally, some decent jokes.

llllllllllllllllllll wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 7:41 pm 10 people say something nice about the left before election day or I’m going to write in Bernie Sanders.

It might semantic but I don’t regard liberals are The Left.

There’s a very real reason that liberal Democrats (in the US sense) are highly supportive of what is broadly, “identity politics”, that because it allows a diversion from a broader class based position that underpins racism, sexism, homophobia etc. As I have said a zillion times, I’m not talking zero sum here. But liberals generally do want the pre Trump status quo. They definitely do not want any movement in the power dynamics of capitalism that would undermine their position, but find overt racism etc distasteful.

Changing the power dynamics of capitalism to favour Labour helps and enables everyone. Minority communities that aren’t economically subjugated have more power to exert more power. This is the fear of the liberal and the conservative. There’s a reason they perpetuate the myth of unions during their greatest power were being racist and sexist. This is now the Acceptable Wisdom but has little foundation in reality if you strip away the backwards looking lens.

Take away precariousness, of everyone and minorities will have more freedom to make decisions about their communities and white/straight et al working class people will be less susceptible to Othering and racist demagoguery.

Oh, and if you get up in the morning and go to work for a boss that can fire you, you’re working class regardless of what you earn.

So, I say again, Yes And…