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steve

i know the other dude can answer your comments himself but i don't understand how you can approve of smoking in public places

"This applies to a lot of things. Why is this your target? Ignore for a moment that the only second-hand smoke study that I know of has no results outside its margin of error (eg we don't have reason yet to believe that it causes any health risks), and explain why this is your target. Not automobile exhaust, not open fire grilling, not dust, not aromatic solvents. Is it because you don't like the smell of smoke? "

-- dude if i frequented bars and restaurants where people revved their engines or sprayed copious amounts of febreeze or did anything that would potentially fuck up my health i would be complaining about that too. and i'm sure there's a few cases on this planet where some people are complaining about badly ventilated parking garages or something. however smoking is the biggest problem and the most relevent, which is why it's the target of many people.


"Then don't go places where you will be offended by the conduct underway there. Don't go to bars that are too smokey for you. The conduct was underway happily for long before you made it your concern, and you are not entitled to change it to suit you."

--great thinking. maybe i should also stay out of the alleys because of the crime, instead of trying to make them safer.


"So, you agree with me then. Smoking in bars is normal, not crazy, and everyone is used to it. There are places where there is no smoke, and if it is a big deal, then you can just go to those places. "

-n-onsmokers in bars is also normal, not crazy. they have been around just as long as the smokers. however since we are now learning so much about the health risks it's turning into a different ballgame. disrupting shit because it use to be 'normal' is a weak argument.


"I didn't say it wasn't selfish, only that it is the established norm. If you want to disrupt centuries of leisure for everyone to suit your conception of what ought to be allowed, then please find a compelling argument first. I might even listen. So far the public health argument is wanting. "

--first i don't see how the public health argument is wanting. i know penn and teller told you it's okay or whatever but i'm pretty sure there are a lot of medical studies showing second hand smoke is really bad for you. secondly, again just because it use to be the norm doesn't make it awesome now. for centuries people use to watch other people fight lions for entertainment but eventually more and more people spoke out against it.

"If I saw a bar where everyone was doing something I didn't want to do or be around -- kickboxing or curare darts or HIV infection night -- then I wouldn't go to that bar. I wouldn't make them stop so I could. "


--but the point is you COULD go to that bar if you wanted to and provided people kept to themselves you wouldn't be compromising your health or security or anything. the whole 'don't go to the bar if you don't like smoke' argument reminds me of stupid hardcore kids telling people not to go to a hardcore show if you don't want to get punched or kicked.


"I think the health issue is secondary to the "my clothes smell" issue, and the health angle is used as cover. There is a strong case to be made for not drinking in a bar all night, if health is one's primary concern."

-your health vs the health of everyone in the room are two very different things, if you are a factor.

ps one last thing if you are a nonsmoker and you go to a venue that's full of smoke, when you get home your throat is really really sore and gross. i'm sure smokers aren't really aware of what the immediate/noticeable effects of secondhand smoke are because they're so use to it. but yeah, it hurts your eyes and your throat and it makes your hands smell bad for like 2-3 days afterwards even if you shower a bunch.

davesec wrote:ps one last thing if you are a nonsmoker and you go to a venue that's full of smoke, when you get home your throat is really really sore and gross.

I am not a smoker, and this does not happen to me.

...

I try and look back and figure out when the exact moment in time was where everyone just became huge crybaby pussies in this country.
I remember my mean ass grandfather sitting on the couch drinking beer.
He'd sit and look mean and drink beer all day every day. Once and awhile he'd growl, but usually just sat there. he fought in 2 wars, raised 11 kids and shitloads of grandkids worked a shit factory job for like 30 years....
I try and imagine him having a discussion with one of his buddies back in the old days, maybe in a foxhole while Germans were shooting at him...
"Oh, the smoke in bars these days is just horrible I hate it, I smell bad when I get home"
"Yeah I know what you mean, it really sucks that people are allowed to do things I personally don't enjoy"
Something tells me they never had this conversation, something tells me they didn't feel like the fate of the fucking earth relied on whether or not they were totally comfortable at all times....and something tells me they didn't shit in their god damn pants at the thought of not living to be a 110 fucking years old because some dude at a bar smoked a cigarette near them...
For the last fucking time...if you dont like bars that are filled with smoke don't fucking go to bars that are filled with fucking smoke!! Why is that so hard to understand? I personally don't like the way hospitals smell..it makes me wanna puke....you know what I figured out? If I don't hang out in hospitals, I don't even have to think about it....
Open your own fucking bar and don't let anyone smoke in it.

Marsupialized wrote:I try and look back and figure out when the exact moment in time was where everyone just became huge crybaby pussies in this country.

Probably around the time you were conceived. Just kidding.

I am not whining about cigarette smoke, I am very concerned about it.

Hell, I like to smoke cigarettes (and did last night). However, to ignore the threat to health that cigarette smoke (active and passive intake) demonstrably provides is irresponsible.

He'd sit and look mean and drink beer all day every day.

Ubi sunt qui ante nos fuerunt, eh? He sounds like a charmer. Throw in heavy smoking, and you also have my dad. and my mom. and my grandfather. 2/3 of those are now dead of lung cancer and not at 110, but at 60.

I like smoking. (I still do it sometimes, even though I shouldn't.) While I like to smoke, I can not ignore that cigarette smoke is not just a risk factor for various cancers, it is a cause.

Do not be so irresponsible that you dismiss alarm over serious health risks as whining.

I'm calling you kittens out: you want to smoke and you don't want to stop smoking in public places, no matter what the health risks to other people are.

I think stepping outside when you want to smoke is fine.

bumble wrote:I think stepping outside when you want to smoke is fine.

There are many people who disagree with you.

Marsupialized wrote:I try and look back and figure out when the exact moment in time was where everyone just became huge crybaby pussies in this country.

Love it or leave it, asshole.

Bradley R. Weissenberger wrote:

bumble wrote:I think stepping outside when you want to smoke is fine.

There are many people who disagree with you.

"People are under the misconception that if they are outside, they are not being exposed," he said. "If you can smell the smoke, your body is inhaling the toxic chemicals in the smoke."

That's not true - odor-containing particles are not one and the same as the active carcinogens.

I think the proposed regulation (linked above) is going way too far.

See you kids tomorrow, have great Friday nights.

vockins wrote:

Marsupialized wrote:I try and look back and figure out when the exact moment in time was where everyone just became huge crybaby pussies in this country.

Love it or leave it, asshole.

Love what or leave it? America? I didn't say I hated living here, I like living here. I like America, I like that it changes every so often and I like the fact people have ideas and opinions on how it should change, and discuss these ideas with much vigor...most of the world, shit like this, an internet discussion on a political issue....is seen as being dangerous. I know that and I don't take it for granted. I am thankful I live somewhere where I can go outside and scream 'Our President George Bush is a complete moron' without worrying about my neighbors calling some squad to come get me....so fuck off with your love it or leave it. It's a stupid statement to make. You blindly 'love it', I think I'll go with 'Love it or try and convince people to change it in a way that would make you more likely to love it'