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I just finished reading this. Very good

https://inthesetimes.com/article/former ... hoe-theory

Anthony Flack wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2023 2:42 pm

Ole Scranton Joe opines, “were there no Israel, there would not be a Jew in the world who is safe”. Which is interesting. So Jews in the United States aren't safe. Jews in New Zealand aren't safe. Every country in the world which doesn't have a Jewish majority could go Holocaust Boogaloo at any time. If only there was something that could protect them, like a Constitution or Bill of Rights or something, but unfortunately such a thing is unheard of.

"I am a Zionist", says Joe. Well, maybe we should go Zionist for everybody. Gay people are persecuted all around the world. I know, let's annex part of Saudi Arabia and make that the gay country. Let's not protect the rights of gay people in our own countries, because safeguarding the rights of minorities is beyond us. Let's just send them off to Gayrabia; job done.

Call me crazy but I know if I were a Jew I'd feel less safe in a tiny state surrounded by countries who hate me.

The Zionist project just seems like a highly questionable one in retrospect.

From Pure Land Buddhists to Zionists the human impulse to literally stake hallowed ground is primitive and directly contrary to spiritual evolution. The entire purpose of the Christ figure, the more contemplative strains of the Hebrew Bible, and the finer passages in the Quran exist to elevate spirituality from the petty political grievances and ethnocentrism of a culture's current moment into something more radical and cosmic. They're moves towards a religious experience that's impossible to politicize.

It's maddening to see members of Abrahamic religions brainwashed by geographical concerns that originated before a modern map was even feasible. People are motivated by the violent tribalism of a millennium where whole continents had yet to be discovered. They saw themselves the center of an earth they'd only charted a hundred miles in any direction.

There's also the uncomfortable truth that Zionism has contributed to international antisemitism as well. Many people around the world see the state of Israel's behavior and say that this somehow defines what it means to be Jewish.

How happy would I be to have someone define my very identity by association with the USA? Not happy at all

Many of the original Zionists were secular, not religious. A close reading of the Bible would not encourage people to move to Palestine in this day and age.

There needs to be a ceasefire immediately. Nothing good is going to come out of this war continuing. Nothing good is going to come from Netanyahu type thinking continuing to define Israel's role on the global stage. It's the deadest of dead ends. There needs to be fresh leadership with fresh perspectives once the war ends.

Yeah. The whole situation is also perma-fucked.

Hamas “we will end Israel”
No they won’t

Israel “we will end Hamas”
No they won’t

Both “we don’t want a Two State solution”

Even though it’s the only way out.

So forever war with the Palestinians ground to dust.

I thought a two-state solution was ridiculous until some people suggested it could be two amalgamated states, kinda like the United States, with freedom to move and to work between Israel and Palestine. Walled borders with no freedom of movement will just get you two states still forever hostile to one another.

Anthony Flack wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 3:48 am I thought a two-state solution was ridiculous until some people suggested it could be two amalgamated states, kinda like the United States, with freedom to move and to work between Israel and Palestine. Walled borders with no freedom of movement will just get you two states still forever hostile to one another.

Regardless whether it’s two hostile states or something more “sensible”, it’s the only option.

Israel’s existence as a colonial state is no different to New Zealand or the US. The only difference I see is it being a bit newer. If anyone says Israel shouldn’t exist they’re not being serious. Other than if you’re generally anti any state on principle.

I think this conflict is at its root a leftover proxy war that’s about wider issues of imperialism. Obviously the plight of the Palestinians is grotesque but that is not the primary motivation at a deeper level. There are plenty of other groups around the world getting bombed and oppressed. This conflict works as a simplistic proxy for US verses third world repression. Let’s be honest, it the US government told Israel to stop this would end immediately.

But both sides of this conflict seemingly have zero interest in resolving it and until that changes it will never end.

Gramsci wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 4:17 am Israel’s existence as a colonial state is no different to New Zealand or the US. The only difference I see is it being a bit newer. If anyone says Israel shouldn’t exist they’re not being serious. Other than if you’re generally anti any state on principle.

It is different, because it gives preferential treatment to Jews, both in law and immigration policy. Something that other colonial states certainly also did; see for example the "White Australia Policy" formally in place from 1901 to 1973, resulting in the Lucky Country becoming 98% white and racist as fuck, but thankfully no longer considered acceptable policy today (unless you're a One Nation Party supporter). But the settlers are here now, legitimately or not, and people who grew up in a place have a right to call that place home.

When people say Israel shouldn't exist, they mean the land shouldn't be designated as a Jewish ethnostate. I completely reject the idea that separating people by ethnicity or religion is a path to peace. Multiculturalism promotes prosperity. The best protection for Jewish people is to live in places where no ethnic or religious group has a majority, under a secular government that guarantees minority rights.

I read a quote recently from an Israeli Muslim who said that nobody ever asks them what THEY want, but a lot of them would like the above - to have the same rights as any other Israeli citizen. If two states is the political construct required to manage the integration process, then ok, sure. But two states in an India/Pakistan or North/South Korea -style split, is just a different version of the same kind of bad.

The irony of Israel is that its location was the first choice for 19th-century German fascists as a repository for the Jewish population.

I heard it said that they can have a democratic Israeli government or a Jewish Israeli government. Not both.

To be absolutely clear this dilemma is not uniquely Jewish. You could not have a democratic Christian government, or a democratic Muslim government. I know you guys get it, but I feel like everyone has to be abundantly clear when you throw the word Jewish around in a conversation.