Crap or Not Crap?

Crap?
Total votes: 18 (69%)
Not Crap?
Total votes: 8 (31%)
Total votes: 26

Phenomena: Globalisation

91
Rick Reuben wrote:t...
But- if you ask Gramsci to identify 'the elites' or 'the bankers' or 'the oligarchs', he will balk. He'll identify agents and categorize them if he gets to select the categories, like neo-con or neo-lib, but he will resist focusing on individuals if he senses that answering the questions will point him towards an acknowledgement of the elite financial power structure.


What the hell are you talking about you idiot, this is the most ridiculous case of putting words in someone's mouth you've pulled for awhile.

Do you expect to be taken seriously if you pull people randomly into your argument without the slightest basis for "quote".

What a fuckin' chump.
Reality

Popular Mechanics Report of 9-11

NIST Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster

Phenomena: Globalisation

92
sunlore wrote:
sparky wrote:Sure, the corporations playing with these derivatives might not give a shit about the "public purpose" of them, but by using them I still think that they might do some good anyway.

Yeah. Though they can still go fucking die.


I have to agree.

“In the absence of a comprehensive international agreement, auctioning of allowances will harm the competitiveness of European companies, especially in energy-intensive industries,” BusinessEurope Secretary-General Philippe de Buck wrote.


Harm to competitiveness, goodness me. I suspect a lack of sense of responsibility here. Which I think was one of Earwicker's bugbears above. They sound like spoiled children with this whining.
Gib Opi kein Opium, denn Opium bringt Opi um!

Phenomena: Globalisation

93
sparky wrote:
“In the absence of a comprehensive international agreement, auctioning of allowances will harm the competitiveness of European companies, especially in energy-intensive industries,” BusinessEurope Secretary-General Philippe de Buck wrote.


Harm to competitiveness, goodness me. I suspect a lack of sense of responsibility here. Which I think was one of Earwicker's bugbears above. They sound like spoiled children with this whining.


Indeed.

But what surprises me is that it seems to surprise some people here.
There are individuals behind these choices.

How can there not be?

Phenomena: Globalisation

94
Earwicker wrote:When you comment on capitalism (specifically Cranius and Andrew) are you doing so simply from a dispassionate analytical point of view? (in other words from a point of view empty of any value judgement)

Andrew certainly seems to be critical of the system of capitalism but would you not want to change it to something else?

I am presuming you would and presuming Cranius would to, but still don't see how you could possibly do that without identifying the primary agents (be they individuals, families or organisations).

I am reminded of a scene in the film The Corporation where the astonishingly effective activists protest outside the house of the head of BP (I think).
The head comes out with his friendly wifey and they all end up having a nice tea party on the lawn as the head explains that nothing is his fault. The corporation has a life of it's own and even though he's the boss he can't be blamed for all the shit BP does and in fact he agrees with much of what the activists are saying.


It's funny you mention that scene, as I was thinking about it the day before you posted this. Isn't it the head of Shell, confronted by members of Earth First?

As I remember it, he takes their criticism on board to some extent and has a reasonable rapport with the demonstrators (his wife is a Quaker and so having a banner emblazoned with the word 'Murderers' draped over his house might have tugged on his conscience).

But isn't the upshot and kind of conclusion of this section of the film, that even as CEO, he is then side-lined by the corporation when he tries to bring up the protesters alarming complaints about human-rights abuses and pollution in the Niger Delta. And ultimately the need to provide profit results for the shareholders overrides his control of the company.

Shell isn't going to be reformed from inside. And if he attempted to, wouldn't he just be asked to retire...which be might of actually what happened...I think he was forced to give up the chair of Shell for questioning Shell's activities in Nigeria and having his own ethical awakening about the company's global responsibilities.

Profit is always going to be the bottom line, no matter the intention or goodwill (or lack thereof) of individuals involved.

Similarly, the Green Party in the UK are calling for a tax on aviation fuel, which is currently the driving force behind low air-fares and airport expansion in Europe. The problem they have in achieving the implementation of that as policy is that planes can put down anywhere to refuel. The tax will be pointless, as companies will just find an airport where the tax isn't implemented.

Capital will seek out a manner to circumvent obstacles designed to limit it in the search for profit.
.

Phenomena: Globalisation

95
sunlore wrote:
Meanwhile, cap-and-trade is key to the Kyoto program. Honest question: do you suggest we should reverse it?


No, but it's telling that even the most pathetic and demonstrably insufficient measures (those of Kyoto, Bali, etc) have had little success in implementation. This constant recourse to faith in capitalist solutions to capitalism should be seen for what it is: the foreclosure of genuine possibilities.

First off, there are multiple points of entry in this discussion. I thought the theoretical/radical ground had been thoroughly covered, and you should realize that my comment was more informed by pragmatism than by credulity or ideology. I maintain that there may be a real possibility of a more sustainable capitalism by way of a commodification of environmentally sound initiatives. This of course doesn't mean I am not sceptical. I mean, I am. And for sure, I didn't mean the point to be the be all end all of the matter.


I agree it can be useful to bracket reality and talk about what's practicable within given coordinates, but it's difficult to commodify restraint: Capitalism is about more, about excess, not less. Cap-and-trade will be great for Monsanto and awful for sustainable agriculture and local economies. Cap-and-trade - because it is a "market solution" rather than an actual political-economic intervention - has lateral "externalities" in deforestation, escalating food costs, and further "accumulation by dispossession" in the global south. It imposes an artificial scarcity in one realm, hence the explosion of (unsustainable) capitalist production and exploitation in others. Biofuels put a further strain on earth's fresh water resources, which are themselves in the process of rapid commodification by agribusiness itself. Perhaps we're witnessing a theoretical pivot from Big Oil to Big Agribusiness. Is this really - even in theory - a move to something more sustainable?

The cap-and-trade argument is that increased commodification can help to save the global commons. This is argumentative quicksand, to say the least.

The evidence is scant


Damningly so. Instead of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic this advocates ripping out chunks of the hull - and pillaging planks from the junks of distant boat people - to build more "green" deck chairs.

but look at recent developments with regard to tobacco legislation: within the next few years, smoking will be completely banned from public spaces in most of the EU and North America. Where is the tobacco lobby in all of this? Either they are somehow less dependent on growth and happy to scale back, or there is a real-world possibly of taking on mcCapital in the face of "environmental" issues.


Tobacco is an interesting case, I agree. Of course, tobacco's relation to global transport and industrial infrastructure is not that of coal, oil, etc. It's not an analogous commodity. And, characteristically, anti-smoking and anti-tobacco mobilization finds much of its leverage in directly addressing the health of individual consumers. And I'm reminded of how long the false intervention of "light" cigarettes forestalled the inevitable: Go Toyota Prius.

Edit: "junks" not junkies" <cough>
Last edited by Andrew_Archive on Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Phenomena: Globalisation

96
Andrew. wrote:Biofuels put a further strain on earth's fresh water resources, which are themselves in the process of rapid commodification by agribusiness itself. Perhaps we're witnessing a theoretical pivot from Big Oil to Big Agribusiness. Is this really - even in theory - a move to something more sustainable?


Furthermore, there is a 400-fold difference in scale between current consumption and maximum possible production of biofuels. So the densities required will just not be materially available. Also, the benefits of the 'techno-fix' would be effectively be neutralised by market forces that would demand the cheapest land-prices to grow the biofuel, in turn threatening the very carbon-sinks that we are seeking to preserve.

Bio-diesel farms are a booming business in Indonesia, where the current rate of deforestation could result in 98% of the natural rainforest being cleared by 2022.
.

Phenomena: Globalisation

97
Cranius wrote:Profit is always going to be the bottom line, no matter the intention or goodwill (or lack thereof) of individuals involved.


But it is individuals pushing for that bottom line.

How can it possibly not be?

Am I to take it that you agree that in the case of a pesticide plant releasing toxic chemicals, killing thousands, that no individuals at the head of the responsible corporation should be punished or penalized?

It's a serious question.

(I'll have a look at the film in a while btw to check on the gist of that segment. I took that whole film to be saying, in short 'treating a corporation as a separate entity is nuts. In fact holding that view allows individuals to absolve themselves of all responsibility for their own actions')

Phenomena: Globalisation

98
Earwicker wrote:
Cranius wrote:Profit is always going to be the bottom line, no matter the intention or goodwill (or lack thereof) of individuals involved.


But it is individuals pushing for that bottom line.

How can it possibly not be?


Because there are more than one of them?

Individuals do not create the ideology and psychological conditions of their own lives out of nothing. Desires such as desire for wealth, and ideological illusions like power and control are not invented by individuals. We should always return to discussions of individual action and events, but there are immediate points in those discussions where discussion of individuals within, or part of, larger systems or common behaviour.

Claiming individual choice at the heart of everything is just wish fulfillment and projection.

Phenomena: Globalisation

99
big_dave wrote:Claiming individual choice at the heart of everything is just wish fulfillment and projection.


I'm not sure I see what wish is being fulfilled here but - whatever.

I've said before that the system is important but if you are basically saying, it seems to me, that the world is totally deterministic and therefore no one should be held responsible for their actions.
If that's what people think then fine - I can see the argument for that. But can you not just say that. Are folks scared to say that for some reason?

Or are some people seen as culpable for their actions but others aren't? And, if so, by what criteria are you making distinctions?

I'll ask what I asked Cranius above:
Should a Chairman or CEO of a corporation be held accountable for the deaths of workers who die as a result of cost cutting for the sake of profit?

I can answer this question quite easily.
My answer says, 'fuck yes, and throw away the key'

What's your answer?

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