I don't have any strong feelings about Zappa, which apparently puts me in the minority here. He's a great big 'meh'. I voted NC solely on the basis of the fact that one or two songs are entertaining to me (notably "Valley girl"). Generally, I find that his sense of humor is horrible. But some of his music is resoundingly adequate. I mean, when a guy puts out 500 songs, it's almost inevitable that a couple will be neat.

I like Frank Zappa
I like the Sex Pistols.
I like Peter Hamill.
I like King Crimson.
I like Sun Ra.
Asia, I don't like so much.

Faiz, I like a bunch. It was impolite to fuck with Faiz.


I like Fugazi...

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.....but not with keyboards.

Dylan wrote:

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:As for the Sex Pistols, I liked it better when Peter Hammill did that sound. Really, only 3 songs on that PH album are punk.

Again, getting a little carried away, here. I see what you're trying to do, but just by saying something over and over does not make it true. Peter Hammill may have written some songs that sound like they may have been precursors to punk rock, but most of that argument is after the fact postulating. The real story of punk has been written again and again, and it does not involve PH.

Back to the Zappa argument!

Dylan, love ya man, but even Lydon says Hammill was a huge influence on him. Yes, there was the MC5 and Stooges, before Hammill. PH influenced the Sex Pistols directly, and they admit it, and it's really obvious when you hear those 3 songs on Nadir's Big Chance. I read a lot about this, including an interview with Lydon where he says that was one of his 3 favorite albums of all time, and a huge influence on him...

Go to google, and type in "Peter Hammill Johnny Lydon". You may get a few references to a "rubber johnny"...

Now, we are starting to get carried away. The point I was making was trying to figure out why 40% of people here think Zappa is crap, and so many people love the Sex Pistols (they faired much better in the crap/not crap debate).

I simply posed the idea that if your favorite band is the Sex Pistols, you won't like Zappa. I also said you need to enjoy jazz to appreciate good Zappa material, since most of what I consider his good stuff is jazz...

Placeholder and capnreverb (who has been on my case ever since I put up the Gentle Giant C/NC topic) have been distorting everything I say. Placeholder has even written huge chunks of conversation that he has superimposed on me, where I am an elitist snob and this and that. I'm sure he's very sensitive to this issue, because I'm sure associates of his have commented that he listens to crappy music. So my comment that if the Pistols are your favorite band and you need to like jazz, etc. to appreciate Zappa got taken out of context, took on a life of it's own, and was superimposed on me. I never said anything like that.

placeholder wrote:love this hilarious, elitist sort of fandom. "If you don't dig Zappa, you're just not intelligent enough to really get him, maaaaaan. The unwashed masses, i.e. anyone who doesn't like Zappa, is only interested in listening to mindless caveman music, like the Sex Pistols. You need to open your miiiiind." This is bullshit.

Yeah, uh, I never said this. I like the addition of quotes, like your own dilusion of what I said is actually a quote. This just tells me that many people have told you the music you listen to is crappy, and you're taking it out on me.

placeholder wrote:"No no no! I'm not gonna listen to this simple crap. I can't listen to this Sex Pistols record more than once! It's insincere retard music! Hand me that Yngwie (or Vai) album, man. He's a composer who works hard to create interesting, intelligent works! It's show-offy and complicated, so it must be intelligent! I have to listen to it over and over before I 'get it'!"

Never said this. Again, it's in quotes, like you had hallucinations of me posting this or something. All I said is that if the Pistols are your favorite band you probably won't get Zappa. I know a lot of people here are dyed in the hoodie and wallet chain punk rockers. One of my very good friends plays bass for Lagwagon, and I make fun of punks in the most loving way. A lot of my good friends are punks, and I think someone like Lance Hahn of J-Church is really open minded and listens to all sorts of music... That said, there's the punks that only listen to punk, and I'm sure there's plenty of them here. Then there are people that listen to all sorts of music, and think Zappa sucks (but never mention which albums these are!) Fair enough. You don't enjoy Zappa. But can you appreciate him? And *specifically*, what have you heard? I listed the albums I like. Tell me why they are bad. I think Broadway the Hardway and that shit is atrocious.

I made an argument that Zappa's popular stuff is what he is known for, and like most popular music, it's not that great. This is true of so many bands (Yes, Genesis, King Crimson). This was mutated into some bullshit about me being elitist. I was just saying that many people have probably heard his popular stuff (I just saw a post about liking Valley Girls -- an ok song, but that's a phase of Zappa's stuff I don't like at all) and not much of his stuff like Waka/Jawaka, which is currently my favorite FZ.

Placeholder, are you auditioning to be the next Bill O'Reilly? Because you excel at punditry and distortion of other people's words. Also, can you name specific albums you find objectionable or crappy? You haven't been able to do this. So far, you've just been living in your own world, where I am some sort of elitist. You've concocted a lot of "elitist" arguments that I never put forth, and pinned them on me... I think you have issues with a lot of people criticizing your taste in music. Don't take this out on me. If you can find someone who's favorite band is The Sex Pistols, hates jazz, but loves Zappa, I'll send you $1.11 in postage stamps...

Even if you do find this musical missing link, it doesn't answer the question...

...one thing placeholder says is that he just does not enjoy Zappa's music. Does that make it crap? I don't enjoy Mozart, but it's not crap. I think the fact that so many modern music groups and organizations are keeping his great works alive, is evidence that Zappa is not crap.

The other thing is, I will admit, Zappa did a lot of questionable matierial. Again, it doesn't detract from his genius. It's not a few songs here and there... There's a lot. Again, his popular music occludes his un-popular, avant-garde, jazz, and rock music.

On ('), everyone seems to remember "Nanook Rubs It" (the one that people here call "Yellow Snow" -- I can tell a lot of you are really familiar with this stuff). What about St. Alphonzo's Pancake Breakfast? What about Exentrifugal Forz?

This is all evidence that people just don't know his stuff... They had some "hippy" friend that likes his popular, radio-"friendly" material. This is the bulk of Project/Objects repretoire... Still today, his popular work occludes his great work...

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:I know a lot of people here are dyed in the hoodie and wallet chain punk rockers.

No, you dont. You have guessed this. You dont know this. And your guess is desperately wrong.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:One of my very good friends plays bass for Lagwagon

Even with a friend in Lagwagon and playing keyboards for Fugazi, you are wrong.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:...one thing placeholder says is that he just does not enjoy Zappa's music. Does that make it crap? I don't enjoy Mozart, but it's not crap. I think the fact that so many modern music groups and organizations are keeping his great works alive, is evidence that Zappa is not crap.

And you are wronger still about Crap/Not Crap.

Good lord, this thread has been "O'Reillyed".

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:Now, we are starting to get carried away. The point I was making was trying to figure out why 40% of people here think Zappa is crap, and so many people love the Sex Pistols (they faired much better in the crap/not crap debate).

Presumably, 40% of people here voted crap on Zappa because they dislike his music. I mean, this is just a wild guess. I'm sure you can come up with countless rebuttals, but none of them would be particularly valid. There's no mystery to why Zappa's CRAP rating is so high: some people have heard his music and did not like it.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:Placeholder has even written huge chunks of conversation that he has superimposed on me, where I am an elitist snob and this and that.

You seem to be getting my mocking your ridiculous attitude (or, yes, elitism) confused with the idea that I'm "superimposing" chunks of conversation on you. Anyone who reads this thread can tell who said what, and not one time did I say that you specifically said any of the stuff I put in quotes as a comedic conceit. I think everyone else here likely knows the difference.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:I'm sure he's very sensitive to this issue, because I'm sure associates of his have commented that he listens to crappy music. So my comment that if the Pistols are your favorite band and you need to like jazz, etc. to appreciate Zappa got taken out of context, took on a life of it's own, and was superimposed on me. I never said anything like that.

placeholder wrote:love this hilarious, elitist sort of fandom. "If you don't dig Zappa, you're just not intelligent enough to really get him, maaaaaan. The unwashed masses, i.e. anyone who doesn't like Zappa, is only interested in listening to mindless caveman music, like the Sex Pistols. You need to open your miiiiind." This is bullshit.

Yeah, uh, I never said this. I like the addition of quotes, like your own dilusion of what I said is actually a quote. This just tells me that many people have told you the music you listen to is crappy, and you're taking it out on me.

placeholder wrote:"No no no! I'm not gonna listen to this simple crap. I can't listen to this Sex Pistols record more than once! It's insincere retard music! Hand me that Yngwie (or Vai) album, man. He's a composer who works hard to create interesting, intelligent works! It's show-offy and complicated, so it must be intelligent! I have to listen to it over and over before I 'get it'!"

The notion that I'm taking anything out on you is very funny to me.

You have mistaken my (very slightly) exaggerated mockery of your previous comments as some sort of attempt to construct "real" quotes. Again, I'm fairly certain that anyone reading this thread could probably understand that my exaggeration is just that. If I'm quoting you, I'll quote you properly. I tend to use the little HTML tags when I'm actually quoting.

Again, though, you insist on taking juvenile potshots at me and whatever you think my musical taste is. I hate to tell you this, but I'm not sensitive to anyone's assessment of my taste. I could not care less. If someone doesn't share my opinion of a particular musician (or anything, for that matter), it doesn't mean anything to me, other than the obvious, i.e. they don't share my opinion. This is not of interest to me.

What I'm not too crazy about is someone making presumptions about my taste, or about my associates "calling me out" for listening to "crappy music". I'm sure this has happened at some point (as it likely has to everyone, really), and it doesn't matter to me. I find your presumptuousness pretty irritating, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:...one thing placeholder says is that he just does not enjoy Zappa's music. Does that make it crap?

It makes it crap to me. I think this is pretty simple: I don't like his music, and for that reason think it is crap. Period. I'm addressing my feelings about his music, as is the rule for the beautiful game of Crap/Not Crap. I know your little fingers are just itching to histrionically type something like (and, obviously, I'm not trying to pre-emptively construct actual quotes; this is me poking fun): "But you haven't heard all his music!" or "You haven't heard his good stuff!" or "You've just heard his popular stuff, and you don't even know the names of the songs! Blasphemy!", but don't bother. Seriously. I don't like anything of his that I've heard, and am entitled to that opinion. I don't "know his stuff", and I will likely never bother with it. There is plenty of great music out there that I have yet to discover, and my record collection will be just fine if it doesn't ever include any Zappa.

With that having been said, I have never called into question Zappa's influence or intelligence or any of that (I did make fun of some of his subject matter, but that's about it). I just don't like his music, and I'm not sure why you have such a hard time processing that. Once again,

I voted crap because I don't like his music. I'm not denying his influence on subsequent musicians or his work ethic or his "chops" or anything else. I just do not like his music.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:I think the fact that so many modern music groups and organizations are keeping his great works alive, is evidence that Zappa is not crap.

Does the fact that people are "keeping his great works alive" automatically make it not crap? I don't think so. Many modern organizations are keeping the "great works" of Elvis Presley (another musician whose influence can't be denied) alive, and I think his music was pretty abysmal as well. There are millions of people keeping Thomas Kincaide's "great works" alive, and that certainly doesn't make him not crap to me.

You cannot prove somebody's opinion about art is invalid, no matter how popular said art is in certain circles. This is not hard to understand, but it is very tiresome to discuss.

placeholder wrote:Does the fact that people are "keeping his great works alive" automatically make it not crap?

Duh! Come on, dummy. This isn't hard to understand. If something is popular, that means it's good.

crappa

placeholder wrote:Good lord, this thread has been "O'Reillyed".

SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP!




.... I voted Not Crap. I'm not "into" any of it, really, and some of it I think is Crap. But some of it strikes me as decent, even if it doesn't yank my dyed wallet chain. His influence, his uniqueness, and his work ethic net him some NC points with me.

But good lord, the preaching here! Think of it this way - if somebody's gay, it's not that they just need to meet the right girl. Or if somebody hates dogs, you don't say, "Well, what about cocker spaniels? What about standard poodles? What about bichons frises?" And if somebody doesn't like Zappa, it's not that they just need to hear the right song.

I gotta say, you can say what you want about Phish fans or DMB fans, I'll take them any day over the evangelists who are into Zappa or Mr. Bungle.

But I voted Not Crap.

Linus Van Pelt wrote:you can say what you want about Phish fans or DMB fans

Really? Well golly, I don't even know where to begin. That might need its own thread.

They smell, they do too many drugs, they're all named "Chad"......

ginandtacos.com wrote:

Linus Van Pelt wrote:you can say what you want about Phish fans or DMB fans

Really? Well golly, I don't even know where to begin. That might need its own thread.

They smell, they do too many drugs, they're all named "Chad"......

Its own thread?! Permission rescinded!!