steve wrote:If by "soul" you mean "mind," then I believe it is basically the same biological processes that inhabit the brain of a cat or dolphin. The content, if expressed, is probably more complex and abstract, but the mechanism is basically the same. This makes sense, as our biology is similar. We are related, after all. None of this requires or implies a creator.

If I accept that some things are un-knowable (what happens when I die, etc.), and I think the real world and its obvious truths are enough, then I don't posess the ennui, fear of the unknown and yearning for an answer to the unanswerable that are pre-requisites for anyone interested in acquiring a God.

When I talk of soul, I don't mean the mind and the mechanics of the brain. I mean the whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. The bits that are more than just kill or be killed, continuation of the species type stuff. To boil it down, the ability to behave out of love for another that has nothing to do with any self-preservation instinct, it's the sacrifice of one's own self for another. What is behind that?

There are plenty of people on this earth that don't have anything to hold on to, much less take with them. There isn't a protection of wealth or inheritance, of science, or of mankind. I think you have alot to hold onto in this life. That is why you cling to it and valiantly defend your concept of morality. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from for you? If its all just gradual change, then your concept of morality is gradually changing until the day you perish, right?

I was acquired by God, not the other way around. That is why I am still here and taking joy in each day that I have breath in my lungs until my physical frame collapses or is run over by a truck. I am not afraid of that, because death and the after is not an unknown for me. I am just trying to do a good job while I am here, like you are trying to do a good job as an engineer (which, I might add, you do a great job).

Rimbaud III wrote:
I would like to see people of whatever faith (but let's focus on the triumvirate of intolerance and contradiction that are the Abrahamic faiths) acknowledge that you can 'love your fellow man' and lead a fulfilling existence without needing a god.

Sure, people can have a great time on this earth and do good without God. But without God, that doesn't carry any further than the physical world.

Rimbaud III wrote:
Religion is notoriously intolerant to the idea of free and critical analysis. Be prepared to accept that when people decide to call it 'malarkey' AND look further into it what they say may not be to your tastes.

Done and done. I am not interested in institutional religion, just as I am not interested in academics or institutionalized indie rock. As much as people remember institutionalized religion, they forget that the man himself, Jesus Christ, was an upsetter of institutional religion. I am not interested in propogating a personal worldview, as many involved in religion and anti-religion are interested in.

The less this thread has to do with how people treat each other, how different people are in reality treated, and how we are given to treat others in this life, and the more it has to do with how we feel about being mortal, etc (ie, as it becomes increasingly de-politicized), the more flakey and hokey it becomes, and the less it matters.

There’s a lot of bullshit here. Look into human suffering. Find out what’s at its root.

Or fuck off, and don’t pretend you care.


Love,

Andrew

derail wrote:
How is it that "christian" people don't recognize that choices and individuality were the first things that God commanded of man?

There's no command of that sort. Free will is a gift, but it is also a heavy burden. There are a million and one things you can choose to do in a day. Are all of them worthwhile just because you can do them and blood flows in your veins? We were made individually, like a fingerprint or a snowflake. We're responsible for the choices we make. To whom and in what lifetime?

"Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' So he is the God of the living, not the dead."

-Jesus, Matthew 22:31-32

LAD wrote:The less this thread has to do with how people treat each other, how different people are in reality treated, and how we are given to treat others in this life, and the more it has to do with how we feel about being mortal, etc (ie, as it becomes increasingly de-politicized), the more flakey and hokey it becomes, and the less it matters.

it's funny, actually, i don't know if it's my perspective that puts me in this position, but i feel like this thread has become more and more centered on how people treat each other... Christian folk have stood up and tried to state a case, and have been (overtly, covertly, directly, and indirectly) told that we're morons, that we're stupid, that we're weak for being in a position where we're "missing something" without some bullshit notion of God. that's how it feels, anyways. i think it's much more telling about how people treat each other than the start of this thread, which was about how people treat each other in an abstract way in that none of us (that i'm aware of) are victims of slavery, or race-related murder, or stuff like that. it somehow evolved into a conversation about how Christians are the cause of society's ills, and a little bit of a beat-down of the Christian people on this forum. and to you that matters less than a discussion of regional tendency towards racial bias. to me, it doesn't matter a whole lot less, because although i am disgusted by instituionalized malice and hatred, i am also really sad to see where this thread was taken. but it doesn't matter less to me, because it's somehow evolved into an attack against me, people like me. it's turned into a smug offensive on the part of non-Christians, picking apart people's beliefs and calling them names... for a while now i've wished somebody would just delete this entire thread, wipe it out, and we could all go back to talking about something inane.

LAD wrote:There’s a lot of bullshit here. Look into human suffering. Find out what’s at its root.

Or fuck off, and don’t pretend you care.

what is this supposed to mean? who here is pretending like they care about something? people are pretending that they care about human suffering? who is doing this?

what's at the root of human suffering? what do YOU think it is? religion? what about for the animal kingdom, which is clearly full of suffering as well? when a baby gazelle gets its head torn off by a lion, does it suffer more or less than someone who is victim of racial discrimination? is that religion's fault, too? people who don't believe in God, i would think you have an easy answer for the root of human (and all other) suffering... eons of slight changes to the material wold and its inhabitants. for the cause of human suffering to be anything other than the natural order of things, let's try and pin it on religion for a moment, then wouldn't human suffering have to have begun after religion was invented? i know i'm reading into what you've said, incorrectly. i have to be.

what is YOUR answer? what is the source of human suffering? what are you inclined to pin it on? religion? race? you're probably too busy to explain it in a way that makes sense to us moronic Christians, eh?

chauncey wrote:There's no command of that sort. Free will is a gift, but it is also a heavy burden. There are a million and one things you can choose to do in a day. Are all of them worthwhile just because you can do them and blood flows in your veins? We were made individually, like a fingerprint or a snowflake. We're responsible for the choices we make. To whom and in what lifetime?

"Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' So he is the God of the living, not the dead."

-Jesus, Matthew 22:31-32

You know, I've been biting my tongue and will continue to do so after this, but...

One of the things that irritates me most about Christianity, aside from its requirement that you hold a laughable, primitive belief in the supernatural (not to mention a belief in Jesus Christ, a person who never existed), is the instinct of its followers to constantly try to proselytize to the uninterested (or rational, if you will). It is a tiresome practice.

chauncey wrote:

derail wrote:
How is it that "christian" people don't recognize that choices and individuality were the first things that God commanded of man?

There's no command of that sort. Free will is a gift, but it is also a heavy burden. "

oops, your're right...he didn't say those exact words. what was i thinking? (i was thinking that you'd look past THE WORDS and look at the point of what he commanded).

and yes...."free will" IS a gift......did you even read my post?

You strike me as someone who would rather not let people choose to accept God, but one who would make accepting God meaningless by requiring it. (i guess it's interpretive differences....)

And yes....I just attacked you personally (in order to call you out for an explanation).

bumble wrote:Let's look at the visit Jesus has already made. It was a pretty good one. Did he want you to be cursed? Did Jesus want pain and suffering? He was a healer, above all. He cured non-believers, too. How could such a healer as Jesus want you to suffer and be cursed?

Look around. Do you think this world as it is now is a place of healing?

"Healthy people don't need a doctor - sick people do. I have come to call sinners, not those who think they are already good enough."

-Jesus, Mark 2:17

"Don't imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! No, I came to bring a sword. I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Your enemies will be right in your own household! If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give it up for me, you will find it."

-Jesus, Matthew 10:34-39

this is not directed at anyone in particular, but rather at everyone.

WILL EVERYBODY PLEASE STOP POSTING TO THIS THREAD? PLEASE.

i wish it were locked, but i feel like the spirit of this board is laissez-faire which is one of the great things about it. so rather than ask for it to be locked, i'm just gonna ask all of us, the people that post in this forum, to please stop posting to this thread. if it's got anything to do with arguing over whether people are Christian or not, or whether religion is good or bad, can we just please take it to other more relevant threads? this thread was supposed to be about how apalling it is that racism has such a violent and recent history in the US. if you think that's got something to do with religion, you've probably already said so. can we please stop using this thread to bicker about Christianity? PLEASE?

okay...last post from me then.

I think we all just proved why racism and hate spreads through the generations.....I guess at a certain point we forget the point and just keep fighting over the last thing we thought was the point.

happy to,
derail!!