bradley w... i totally agree about the relevance of PE. i only wish there was a stronger presence in the rap mainstream today of forward-thinking, socially critical, yet still *positive* artists whose message promotes enlightenment (as PE did), rather than the negativity i see in folks promoting bling and thongs.
djanes1... i think maybe we're just looking at it differently. the way i'm seeing it, there are not 10 acts out there called "produced by dr dre", there are people called "xzibit" and "eminem" and such. the beats are necessary and are important, but i tend to think it's a case of the same thing as what i've seen with pop music, namely, the music is there to give the vocalist something to sing over. average joe doesn't even have the ability to identify the instruments used in the music, or go any further with the music than the ability to bounce along with it, but he can hum the vocal melody or even sing it if he knows the words. i think this is a truth, a generalization that holds true with the majority of folks if you take a random sample. here, you're gonna get the perspectives of people who can't even listen to some albums because they're put off by how bad the stereo imaging is, so that whole "vocals first" thing will be much less likely to apply. so i certainly agree with you that we all come to the table with our life experiences ingrained in us more or less. of course, my parents don't listen to math rock, not even close, nor do we have any musical tastes in common, really, aside from maybe some beatles stuff or most of what came out of motown. so i don't know how far i'd wanna go with the 'different backgrounds' thing. i mean, my mom loves diana ross, but i would venture to guess that the two of them did not grow up in a remarkably similar fashion. i can't know for sure.
as far as the big-name producers thing goes, i'm just gonna say that many folks are gonna be able to recognize the name "eminem", or "snoop dog" for example, and many less folks will identify "the Neptunes". granted people will identify Dr Dre, who is arguably the biggest-name producer out there (especially to the marginally-informed like myself) but even that probably stems from his success with NWA and really with the success of The Chronic and all that followed.
also, i never said that rap was primarily about the words. i said it's primarily about the vocals. it may have been better for me to have used the word "vocalist" in place of "vocals". that is certainly in line with the point i was making. the tone of someone's voice can be what sets them apart, the use of rythmn, even the use of stuff like after every line, screaming the word "whuh?!?". i don't know who busta rhymes is because of his lyrics, i don't even know what the hell his lyrics are most of the time. but i know the sound of his voice, and i know how he looks, and i know his gestures. and, i might add, off the top of my head, i haven't the slightest idea how any of his beats go or who produces them. i realize that my personal experience doesn't merit a generalization all on its own, but i'd venture to guess that it's the same for plenty of other people who would even consider themselves fans. i don't think i ever even implied that the specific words were the key, so much as the man on the mic. like how the fresh prince overshadowed dj jazzy whats-his-name, or how more people are probably gonna recognize chuck d or flavor flav than terminator x, or how the groups were called "run dmc" and "salt n pepa" and not "jam master jay" or "spinderella".
re what you said "I think if you can enjoy Public Enemy or the Roots, then you enjoy hip hop as a genre." i completely disagree. let's ignore the fact that the rules of logic mean the statement pretty much needs to have the word "all" in it, since nobody was ever talking about "all" in this discussion so much as "most". that aside, it seems like you're saying if i *only* like PE, and i actively can't stand 10,000 other rap groups i've heard, then i still like rap as a genre. this is absurd. i can like one song by one artist, or ten songs by one artist, or ten artists out of a thousand, or 80% of the artists i hear... these are all different scenarios. just because i like one specific pair of shoes doesn't mean i like all shoes, or even that i really like shoes in general.
i actually lived in a recording studio for over a year, and the client base was primarily from chicago's hiphop underground. i got to meet some cool people, and some dicks, i got to hear some cool songs, and some lame ones. i got to play on an album by E.Cilla, and work with guys like Panic, and DJ PNS (i'm thinking these are all guys that somebody who was following chicago hiphop in the late 90's would be familiar with). there's even a song out there (called "the ska machine") on a ska compilation... (
http://www.jumpuprecords.com/jump100.html ) my friend wrote the guitar and drums, i added the bass, and then we got Rhymefest to lay down some vocals. and you'll see on the disc that the name of the group is Rhymefest. that's just how it works. people care more about the man on the mic. anyways, please don't assume that my opinion about rap as a genre is based solely on "shitty mainstream rap", because it's slightly more informed than that, though i admit i haven't put in extensive time researching all rap acts so i can find more that i like. because i don't get into rap so much, in general. also, mainstream rap has presented me with some stuff i enjoy, too, i don't think i ever said that all mainstream rap is bad. but yeah, if i was really informed, i probably would've known before five minutes ago that N.E.R.D. and the Neptunes are the same folks. if N.E.R.D. was pop mainstream, instead of indie mainstream, i'd probably already have known that. because of friends of mine, i've heard of (and heard) N.E.R.D. , though i never heard of the Neptunes.
and your postulation that if you like "rock" music, that would somehow mean that you are then obligated to like *ALL* rock bands is kinda silly, too. i don't even think this would be possible for most people to do. nobody (i hope) is saying that ALL rap is crap, or that ALL rap is not crap. really, both of those positions would end up being indefensible, and anybody with enough free time, motivation, and skill could actually put together a rap group that would disprove either of those statements to the person who made it. obviously it would be much easier to disprove "all rap is not crap". that'd take about ten minutes. saying "all rap is crap" would be much harder to invalidate, though it could be done. it would just require determining and focusing the project on the specific likes of the person making the statement.
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