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Philosopher: Plato

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:44 pm
by NerblyBear_Archive
Figured I'd follow up the philosophy discussions with a vote on Plato. Crap or Not Crap?

I vote Not Crap wholeheartedly. Best philosopher ever, in my opinion. My favorites are The Symposium, The Republic, and The Phaedo.

Philosopher: Plato

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:49 pm
by Gramsci_Archive
Republic is brilliant.

Philosopher: Plato

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:53 pm
by Jeremy_Archive
Gramsci wrote:Republic is brilliant.


i was about to do a C/NC for this book.

Philosopher: Plato

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:53 pm
by spud head_Archive
It's too idealistic.

Philosopher: Plato

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:59 pm
by Gramsci_Archive
spud head wrote:It's too idealistic.


It was written three fuckin' thousand years ago... it can be as idealistic as it want's to be.

It makes more sense than the Bible ever did.

Philosopher: Plato

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:04 pm
by Lemuel Gulliver_Archive
NC. 0 WF.

I'm currently writing my master's thesis on the first few sections of the Republic (mainly Bks I and II) and Machiavelli (mainly the Prince, with some Discourses and Clizia thrown in). No matter what I study for serious measure or what I come across wherever--be it the Sopranos, Mel Gibson, the nightly news, or whatever--I can always come back to something in these sections. Sorry, that sounds like I'm tooting my own horn. I am. But I don't really mean to be.

Anyway, I was thinking as I voted NC that it's sort of weird to say "my favorite philosopher." It makes it sound like your favorite flavor of ice cream. As I see it, philosophy isn't there to be liked or disliked, but to edify. It might do so in unpleasant ways, e.g., Machiavelli. I think Socrates would agree.

Discuss.

Salut, Nerbly Bear for starting a C/NC on the most NC thing I can think of!

Philosopher: Plato

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:12 pm
by NerblyBear_Archive
Lemuel Gulliver wrote:NC. 0 WF.

I'm currently writing my master's thesis on the first few sections of the Republic (mainly Bks I and II) and Machiavelli (mainly the Prince, with some Discourses and Clizia thrown in). No matter what I study for serious measure or what I come across wherever--be it the Sopranos, Mel Gibson, the nightly news, or whatever--I can always come back to something in these sections. Sorry, that sounds like I'm tooting my own horn. I am. But I don't really mean to be.

Anyway, I was thinking as I voted NC that it's sort of weird to say "my favorite philosopher." It makes it sound like your favorite flavor of ice cream. As I see it, philosophy isn't there to be liked or disliked, but to edify. It might do so in unpleasant ways, e.g., Machiavelli. I think Socrates would agree.

Discuss.

Salut, Nerbly Bear for starting a C/NC on the most NC thing I can think of!


Hey, salut to you as well for writing a thesis on Plato. I'm doing the same thing, only it's not a Master's Thesis--it's an Honors Undergraduate Thesis--and the other thinker I compare and contrast Plato's work with is Nietzsche, not Machiavelli. It sounds like we could share some interesting ideas, seeing as how we are doing things that are quite similar.

And I don't think there's any shame in having "favorites" in philosophy. I constantly tell people, when they ask me who my favorites are: Plato and Nietzsche. Bar none. I love their writing styles; their imagery and penchant for metaphor; and their ideas are so stimulating. No shame in that game.

And someone on here said that Plato was "too idealistic". Interestingly enough, I agree wholeheartedly. I think the tension between idealism and empiricism is the main thing that makes his work so interesting.

Philosopher: Plato

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:36 pm
by Lemuel Gulliver_Archive
NerblyBear wrote:Hey, salut to you as well for writing a thesis on Plato. I'm doing the same thing, only it's not a Master's Thesis--it's an Honors Undergraduate Thesis--and the other thinker I compare and contrast Plato's work with is Nietzsche, not Machiavelli. It sounds like we could share some interesting ideas, seeing as how we are doing things that are quite similar.


Not sure I can share much. It seems like all I have are questions, and anything good I can point out goes directly into the paper itself. Some mornings I get up and read what I wrote the night before and think "I knew this yesterday?" WTF?

And I don't think there's any shame in having "favorites" in philosophy. I constantly tell people, when they ask me who my favorites are: Plato and Nietzsche. Bar none. I love their writing styles; their imagery and penchant for metaphor; and their ideas are so stimulating. No shame in that game.


Ok, you put it out there that way. Plato, FN, and I'd throw in NM are writers of the highest callibre. Even if you don't get it, it's beautiful language. There's the drama of Plato, the bombast of FN, and NM is a bit of a combination of the two--subtle bombast with neat stories about how dirty people can be.

And someone on here said that Plato was "too idealistic". Interestingly enough, I agree wholeheartedly. I think the tension between idealism and empiricism is the main thing that makes his work so interesting.


I don't think so. Proceeding Socraticall--it's too difficult to separate Plato from Socrates--leads one to more and better questions, not necessarily finite answers. [The forms thing gets overplayed.] That said, the better questions suggest indications to answers for previous questions. What idealism I find in Platonic political philosophy is a reflection of the flaws in nature and human nature in particular. Not trying to correct such flaws would be vulgar. See, Hobbes basing things on life being nasty, brutish, and short. It is, but shouldn't we aim higher?

Philosopher: Plato

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:15 pm
by NerblyBear_Archive
Lemuel Gulliver wrote:I don't think so. Proceeding Socraticall--it's too difficult to separate Plato from Socrates--leads one to more and better questions, not necessarily finite answers. [The forms thing gets overplayed.] That said, the better questions suggest indications to answers for previous questions. What idealism I find in Platonic political philosophy is a reflection of the flaws in nature and human nature in particular. Not trying to correct such flaws would be vulgar. See, Hobbes basing things on life being nasty, brutish, and short. It is, but shouldn't we aim higher?


I agree that we should try to correct our flaws, whether in the context of a city, or just for our own benefit.

But one of the things Plato is notorious for is his denigration of the realm of "becoming", and his idealization of the realm of "being". This is a complex subject, of course--and, no doubt, I don't need to tell you what you already know--, but the gist of Plato's opinion is that a philosopher should be like a mathematician, focusing solely on the forms of actually existing things, and ignoring as much as possible their phenomenal occurrence in the real world. For example, we should strive to keep firmly rooted in our minds the concepts of "justice," "holiness," "beauty," etc., and we should measure all of the things we experience in terms of their relationship to those ideal standards.

The funny thing is that there is an element in much of Socrates' conversation that resists this pull to idealization. For example, in Euthyphro, Socrates embarrasses Euthyphro by letting him see that, by refusing to "go with his gut" (i.e. to let his emotions govern his decision) and by prosecuting his father because of the latter's allegedly "unholy" act, he is acting in an inhuman way. The irony is that, try as we might to set up ideal standards, they are often faulty and misleading when we try to put them into practice.

This is the dialectical struggle that I mentioned between idealism and empiricism. This is part of what my own thesis is about; another aspect of it deals with the ways in which Nietzsche provides the best example of an "experimental" (his own self-description) philosopher, one who champions the realm of "becoming" and mocks the realm of "being". Nietzsche, in my view, is primarily interested in the way sexuality is our determining factor as humans, and in how it conditions even our most "rational" thoughts. Sexuality, as I interpret it, is the "will to power".

There is a sense in which, by taking into account both Plato's and Nietzsche's ideas, we can come to an appreciation of both: liberated sexuality and moderation; experience and judgments; emotions and concepts.

Philosopher: Plato

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:50 pm
by HOUSTON_M_Archive
NOT CRAP.

Fascinating and genuinely thought provoking.

I also think Aristotle deserves his own poll.