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Hey guys,

I'm buying a new Mac Book this weekend. Then I will be exploring the world of computer recording. I plan to get a MOTU 828 in January but in the meantime I would like to get started with a DAW program.

Most of my immediate friends have CUBASE but I've been leaning towards DP because I've heard it's better and it seems to be cheaper.

I've never been happy with "in the box" mixes either of these friends have made... I dunno if it's a limitation of Cubase or what.

Please make a case for not buying what my friends have.

BTW: I'm not considering Pro Tools.

I work as a QA in an audio company. My job is to tinker with all these programs.
my advice, Stay away from cubase!
Some of the most annoying limitations:

up until cubase 4, There was no option to replace plugins between insert points. Means, if you have a compressor on insert 1, and want to move it to insert 2, you'd have to deactivate the plugin, and open it up again on insert number 2.

No side chain option.

Grouping - If you have four groups, and want to send group number 4 into group number 2, you cant. You just can't send the groups "backwards" only "forward".

Importing audio files. If you have a stereo file, which is divided into left and right(i.e. two mono channels). you can't just grab the files, bring them into cubase and make cubase act like it a stereo file. You can only import the files as two mono files. to make them a stereo file, you'd have to bounce them out of cubase as a stereo-interleved.
I don't like editing with cubase, it's just not comfortable.

DP is much more modular and fun. cubase is the worst sequencer ever.
Pro Tools is a piece of cake, it's easy to edit files and such, but it only has 5 insert points, no real delay compensation, it also kinda fuck up the sound(in the digital domain). The AD/DA converters inside Digidesign hardware are the worst.

I wouldn't buy a Mac, but that a different story.
Btw, in my opinion, the best Mac recording program is logic.

Hmmm Logic.

Please explain pros

My wife get's an educational discount so DP is only $395... (same if I upgrade from the freebie Audio Desk but I won't have the 828 for a while.)

Logic is $499 with the discount but then I can't upgrade.

It is very often not the fault of the DAW software when mixes are unsatisfactory. So purely on the basis of potential mix quality alone, DP and Cubase are more or less indistinguishable.

The sound quality of a mix done in a DAW is a function mainly of non-software parts of the signal chain: the ADDA conversion in the soundcard/interface, the monitors when recording, the monitors when playing back, the mikes and pres, the room, the skill and ear of the mixing engineer.

I understand being blown figures into it as well.

One thing a DAW does that can introduce coloration is that it adds channels together at various times in various ways. This is called digital summing, and there have long been arguments that this internal processing can be of low quality in specific programs.

I think this summing is clearly colored in programs like Fruity Loops or even Acid. I have heard many arguments that Pro Tools has substandard summing; I can't say I've heard it myself. Mainline DAWs like PT, DP, Cubase, Sonar, etc do their internal arithmetic at least at 32-bit precision which is supposed to result in complete transfer of sample information entering a system at 24-bit.

The wrinkle there is that the DAW is just one program. Typical DAW sessions run several programs called plugins that set their own rules about summing and whatnot and these are absolutely of widely varying quality.

Anyway, I've used both of the products you mentioned in a kind of conservative, bare-bones "tape deck" mode and I don't hear either one poorly coloring audio they sum. There are many differences between the two products of course, but to my ear, neither colors audio by itself and therefore neither should be considered as a potential culprit in a bad mix. Not when there are literally dozens of opportunities to mess up in other areas.

-r

Well, cubase is kind of coloring the sound.
One of our ways to check our plugins' sound consistency is a cancellation test. We take two identical sound files, processing them with the same plugin, same preset, and then cancellating them(switching the phase of one track), there are all kinds of cancellation tests, but I don't want to bore you to death.

I've heard from some stories about cubase being inconsistent - Identical bounces wouldn't cancelate etc'.

In my opinion, cubase is kinda "drying" the sound. leaving everything punch-less. Logic is more transparent and leaving the tracks as is.

A note about pros and cons of recording programs:
All programs have the same editing, processing, playing and recording capabilities and options(except for cubase, like I stated in my previous post). The tricky part is how intuitive the program is.
Lots of people say that cubase is the most intuitive program. I can understand, but for me, cubase graphics were always a turn off(the turquoise-grey design just sucks).
Still, all recording programs are versatile and you can change the User Interface so it fits your needs and ways of work.
Even if cubase <b>is</b> the most intuitive program, it lacks some of the most desired, basic functionalities.

As for DP and Logic, if DP is cheaper, then go for DP.
also, a good thing is to read the manual of your recording program. doesn't matter which one you're using, read it's manual. it'll help and save you some time.

eliya wrote:Importing audio files. If you have a stereo file, which is divided into left and right(i.e. two mono channels). you can't just grab the files, bring them into cubase and make cubase act like it a stereo file. You can only import the files as two mono files. to make them a stereo file, you'd have to bounce them out of cubase as a stereo-interleved.

I've imported stereo 2-channel wavs into Cubase many times without a problem. The audio channel which you import it into gets switched into stereo mode, and it works just fine for me.

stewie wrote:

eliya wrote:Importing audio files. If you have a stereo file, which is divided into left and right(i.e. two mono channels). you can't just grab the files, bring them into cubase and make cubase act like it a stereo file. You can only import the files as two mono files. to make them a stereo file, you'd have to bounce them out of cubase as a stereo-interleved.

I've imported stereo 2-channel wavs into Cubase many times without a problem. The audio channel which you import it into gets switched into stereo mode, and it works just fine for me.

You sure? it just doesn't happen. Maybe I missed something in the preferences. Do you know what option tells it to recognize as a stereo file?

btw, im talking about two mono channels that you want to make a stereo. not a stereo file.

Get Logic.

I've used cubase a bunch, and I've used logic a bunch, and i've used motu's program called AudioDesk a little bit. AudioDesk seems like a kindof watered down version of DP.

based on my experience, I would say Logic or DP. I really didn' take to cubase. complex cutting, pasting and fading seemed unintuitive, as did automation.

the problem with logic is that there are literally about 70 ways to accomplish any one goal (unless that goal is some sort of quirky technicality, in which case there is ONE way to do it, and it is usually nested a few layers deep in some preference windows)

the plus side to logic is that if you ever want to do anything more than just record music, you're covered. the exs24 is a great sampler, and the stock synth engines can get pretty far out.

apparantly DP's time stretch algorithm is audibly distinct (i was at my sister's dance concert, and there was a guy doing the music live to this one piece. the guy in the audience said DP, and i disputed, because i had asked the performer earlier about what software he used, and he said max/msp. turns out the audience guy was right, as he was using DP for the other number).

again, the above doesn't really matter if you're using it purely for recording.


i also don't particularly fancy logic's aiff editing engine (sample editor), but that's because i learned pro tools first, and PT is a lot more convenient in that area.

people who i've talked to who have never used PT but use logic (ok, so one guy i am friends with, not people) say that they think the sound file editing capabilities of logic are fine, just fine.


you should check out your wife's educator's store. you may find that they don't put any theft protection on their software products....



just sayin....

Logic still doesn't have delay compensation for plugins which would (for me) instantly rule it out unless you enjoy endlessly nudging tracks back and forward in order to fix timing and phase issues.

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eliya wrote:Even if cubase <b>is</b> the most intuitive program, it lacks some of the most desired, basic functionalities.

What are these 'desired, basic functionalities'?

I've been using Cubase for years, and following it's development with interest and I just don't believe that your description is even vaguely accurate.

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If I was starting from scratch, I'd buy Samplitude. I use it in combination with Cubase (simply because my Samplitude is a couple of versions old and can't do much of the fancy midi stuff that Cubase can).

Samplitude seems to be considered to have the best audio engine currently on offer, and certainly is one of the most efficient apps. It's also hugely intuitive.

I vote Samplitude.