Premier Rock Forum

I was reading the Synoptic Gospels last night, and it struck me that nowhere in them does Jesus claim divinity for himself. The place to find where he says that is the Gospel of John. I thought I'd bring this old chestnut up again. This was Steve's bet (however, I don't want his money, I just want to see if I'm right); he said:

Please show me where in scriptures Jesus says that he alone is the divine son of god. I will give you $100.

I know he refers to god as "the father." He also refers to everyone as a child of god and his brothers. That's not what I'm talking about. I need a sentence that says, or can only be taken to mean, "I alone am divine, and I call myself the son of god."

Quote:
Ch. 5 v. 18: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."


Quote:
Ch. 9: "35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee."


Quote:
Ch. 10: "34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not."


Okay, so Jesus clearly did think of himself as the Son of God. Further evidence is provided by his decision to forgive people of their sins--this had not been done by anyone other than Yahweh before his time.

Of course, I realize that Jesus may never *actually* have done what the Gospels allege him to have done. This is just going off of the Johannine texts.

i think this can actually be kerbled.

matt's thread about steve owing him some money for a bet on this same thing, i think.

I believe these examples lack the exclusive divinity admission he may have been looking for. I was hoping this was a mud wrestling challenge.

NerblyBear wrote:Quote:
Ch. 5 v. 18: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

This speaks to a presumption that he made himself equal with god. He refers to god as the father of everyone, so obviously him too. The inference that he was equal to god was not his.

The other quotes have ambiguities, allusions and apparent metaphor, and are not the direct proclamation of exclusive divinity everyone presumes to exist.

If the central thesis of your religion is that your messiah is the only divine son of god, you would expect that to appear unabiguously somewhere in the text (perhaps many times, like "forgive each other" and "love each other" do) yet it does not.

Okay, so Jesus clearly did think of himself as the Son of God. Further evidence is provided by his decision to forgive people of their sins--this had not been done by anyone other than Yahweh before his time.

Jesus says we should all forgive each other. He does so.

Y'all come on down to Electrical for some good ol' fashioned hog-wrasslin'...bear fightin'...ribs...steve-baitin'...

steve wrote:

NerblyBear wrote:Quote:
Ch. 5 v. 18: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

This speaks to a presumption that he made himself equal with god. He refers to god as the father of everyone, so obviously him too. The inference that he was equal to god was not his.

Well, if it's a presumption, it's John's presumption. "He said...that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." Jesus said that, according to John. Probably John fabricates a bunch of stuff. Much of the Bible contradicts itself, so scripture is not the most trustworthy source in the world. But you wanted scriptural proof that, at some time, Jesus equated himself with God. This isn't a direct quote, but even if there were a direct quote straight from Jesus, it would still have had to have been written down by John. Hence, for John to say that Jesus said something and for him to quote him directly amounts to the same thing.

steve wrote:The other quotes have ambiguities, allusions and apparent metaphor, and are not the direct proclamation of exclusive divinity everyone presumes to exist.

Again, it would have been much better if Jesus had said "I am the incarnate God." But how is this ambiguous (paraphrasing):

Jesus: Do you worship the Son of God?
Blind man: How do I know who he is so that I could do so?
Jesus: You have actually been seeing him, and you are talking to him right now.

If the central thesis of your religion is that your messiah is the only divine son of god, you would expect that to appear unabiguously somewhere in the text (perhaps many times, like "forgive each other" and "love each other" do) yet it does not.

Yeah, I agree. It would have been much better if Jesus had done this.

Jesus says we should all forgive each other. He does so.

Yeah, but he forgave people *of their sins*. Meaning that, from that time onward, these people were guiltless in the sight of God and would enter heaven. This is different from forgiving a friend for stinking up your bathroom.

Dude never porked a chick.
Probably one of them queers.

Christopher J. McGarvey wrote:Dude never porked a chick.
Probably one of them queers.

that ain't the way i heard it.

I heard he made the first 'Food Not Bombs' to feed the community. I guess it turned out well.

Christopher J. McGarvey wrote:Dude never porked a chick.
Probably one of them queers.

Prolly wore Birkenstocks, too.