Hello

i'm poor so i'm using a single overhead mic, placed 2 ft above the kit aiming at its center.

i'm recording an okay drumkit (sonor force 3005 with good cymbals) in my basement, which doesn't sound very good but it could have been worse)

i did a comparison between these two mics : beyer m201 & oktava mk319

here's what they sound like, raw and unprocessed (please forget my drumming)

http://motthieu.free.fr/mk319oh.mp3
http://motthieu.free.fr/m201oh.mp3

the M201 has a lot of high end (not really my taste) yet still sound natural, and seem to have a good off axis response

the MK319 sounds a bit muffled and sounds less natural, and its off axis response doesn't seem very good as well. (i'm not an expert)

the prob is i'm using the M201 as my snare mic, so i'll need to stick with the MK319 ...
(i have a D112 for the kick)

and i'd like to hear more of the drumkit and less of the room...

questions :

- what do you think of the recordings ? which one would you choose ?
- what would you do to get a better sound ?
- how to you mix overhead ? do you highpass them at 500hz ? 800hz ? how do you compress them ?

thanks for any help !
bigramp

nobody cares ?

after a day of hard work here is a very raw mix of what i came up with.

http://motthieu.free.fr/drumkit19.mp3

what do you think ?

d112 on kick
m201 on snare
mk319 on overhead

The 201 definitely has more treble detail, use that for your OH if you want to showcase your cymbal work more. It'd be interesting to hear the 319 on snare.
As for your full kit sound, you have it balanced well as it is, but experimenting on swapping the 201 and the 319's positions might yield whatever results you may be after.
I normally don't compress the OHs unless the transients are way out of control, and even then it's pretty light. If they're too washy, I may actually expand them anywhere from a dB to a dB and a half.
When it comes to EQ, I normally don't touch it if I can help it. It's pretty dependent on the cymbals' sound. I don't recall ever setting a HP on OHs, I have used LP on OHs before, I believe I had to target the 12K neighborhood or higher with a real soft slope, 6dB/8ve. It was a few months back. Maybe a year.
Definitely get yourself another pair of mics for the toms. I know you're on a budget, and I hate the SM57 (well, "hate" is kind of strong), but a pair of those are only $200 (last I ever checked).
As I said, though, your full kit sounds pretty well balanced, the darkness of the 319 compliments the kit well in your "fully mic'd" setup. I wouldn't fuck around with processing any signals on it, but I would experiment with the mic positions.

Something to consider: try to get a matched pair of mics; a lot of old jazz recordings were made with just a kick mic and one or two OHs. Check out the YeahYeahYeah's Fever to Tell for a comparable drum mic set up if you don't have any jazz records around.

thanks for your input

the oktava did a good job as overhead after i did a slight boost of the trebles.

here's an updated mix, still quite raw though, didn't want to do much processing
http://motthieu.free.fr/drumkit19B.mp3

here's the snare unprocessed (beyer m201)
http://motthieu.free.fr/snaremoretension.mp3
does it sound ok to you ? dunno if i should lower the snare tension or if my placement is right...

try putting the mic out front instead of overhead. You will get more kit.
I like chest level-pointed at the tom rack-exactly as far out as it is high.

Also buy an Omni dynamic and a nice pre. EV 635a goes for around 50 bones and i love it for overheads. thats just me.

I would adjust the tension of the snare to how it sounds right to you by ear, not by recording.
To get the sound you're looking for on tape (or on hard drive, for that matter), do a couple takes (couple as in dozen or dozens) with the mic in different positions:
Try 45 degrees, the 30 degrees, 90 degrees; aimed at rim, aimed at center; 1/2 inch, 1 inch, 1 1/2 inches; etc. (Those alone should give you about 18 different combos.)
One of the best sounds I've gotten was mic on top, mic 1 inch from the hole on the side of the snare.
It is key, though, that the snare sounds right to your ear when playing. It is also key that you get the sound you want on the tape by starting with mic placement.

Am I confused or did you say you were using a Beyer 201 for the second of those overheads?

That sounded absolutely amazing for a dynamic mic (hypercardioid or otherwise). I'm going to get one. (Been thinking about it anyway).

(BTW, the 201 is the dictionary definition of a snare mic)

I don't think the Okatava sounded that great, but that might because you played it in a bad room. Or not. I live five or six miles from their North American distributor (in North Liberty, Iowa). The most memorable thing about them is their smell.

If you're room is suspect, you need a tighter polar pattern, but you're room wasn't a problem for the 201. It's just the wrong type of mic for an overhead (dynamiic, slow frequency response, etc.).

Also you said something like 2 feet of spacing.

You shouldn't get that much room with that little space with any cardioid mic.

The best value per dollar overhead buy i've found are these

http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/CEMC6.html

They run something like $270 new. It would run you $80 for either a supercardioid (more room) or hypercardioid (less room) replacement capsule. I have a matched pair of cardioid (stock) and hypercardioid (special ordered but easily available) capsules. I also have a single omni cartridge that I love but would not recommend for drums. (They're poor man's versions of the Schoeps CMS-6 amplifier and capsule).

I did side by sides using these bastards as overheads versus:
1) The AKG-414 (ULS and XLS both). They lost by a narrow margin with the 414s being clearer in the mids but weaker in the bottom.
2) The AKG C-1000 (ultimately a piece of shit, but still the best overall microphone you can score used for about one bill). The Peluso's kicked their ass every way to Sunday.
3) The Rode NT-1s. A brutal beat-down. The NT-1s suck, 5 dB to noise or otherwise)
4) The AT-4041 small diaphragms. Also a brutal beat down as well but this time on a mic on the same price range.
5) The AT-4033s. These are great mics for guitars and probably okay for drums.

The Beyer M-160 is a better overhead than any of the aforementioned, but I've only got one and I usually do overheads in stereo. They list at $600 but with patience you can get one with factory warrantee for one or two bills less.

I think you owe it to yourself to get a better overhead than the Oktava.

I think it's a piece of shit, but the sounds you got off it are pretty good all things considered. I don't think better tech would be wasted on your ears.

B.

thanks

just to clarify : on this last mp3 ( http://motthieu.free.fr/drumkit19B.mp3 )

i used the AKG D112 inside the kick drum, the Oktava MK319 as an overhead (a bit closer to the kit), and the M201 for the snare

i added slightly more tension to the snare

here is the oktava mk319 track with a high end boost
http://motthieu.free.fr/mk319oh2.mp3

i agree that the M201 sounds better, but i doubt the oktava would do a good job on the snare... here is its frequency response
http://www.oktava-online.com/fr319.gif

thanks

edit : i'm thinking of replacing the mk319 by a beyer m260.80 while i can ... do you think it would do a good overhead ?

cowtown14 wrote:
The best value per dollar overhead buy i've found are these

http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/CEMC6.html

....

I think you owe it to yourself to get a better overhead than the Oktava.

I got talked into a pair of the cemc6's and thought they sucked...at first I thought that something must have been wrong with them, I did side by side comparisons with the pelusos, a 414 and an oktava 012 on a drum kit, all through a John Hardy m2. The pelusos had a big spike around 200hz and the high end dropped off sharply after 5khz...the Oktava's had a much tighter low end and far more detailed highs...I thought they sounded better all the way around.

I called the dealer and he insisted that the pelusos must be fucked up, so I sent them back...they checked them out and said they were fine and that I must be "using them wrong", or my "room must sound bad"...never mind that the other mics sounded fine. It took a couple of phone calls, and some choice words but I ended up with a refund.

Anyway.

I think you could do a lot worse than the Oktavas...the 319 might not be the best for 0H, but considering the price to quality ratio...plus the mods and other capsules available, I would recomend a pair of 012's over the pelusos.