Rick Froberg Interview + Transcript
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:27 pm
Okay, I've found this so far:
My name’s Vish and I’m very thrilled to tell you about our guest this week. He has played guitar and sang in such great San Diego-based bands as Pitchfork, Drive Like Jehu, and the Hot Snakes. He is one of punk music’s most interesting lyricists and singular vocalists and he’s also an acclaimed visual artist whose work was recently exhibited as part of the 2005 Basefield Exhibition in Melbourne, Australia. He’s also designed album covers, websites, and t-shirts for most of the bands he’s been in plus his good friends Rocket From the Crypt and Swami Records. His amazing band the Hot Snakes called it a day this month, which made us want to call him up and find out why. So, without further adieu, ladies and gentleman, all the way from Brooklyn, NY, please say hello to Rick Froberg.
Pitchfork – Burn Pigs, Burn
Eucalyptus
Vish: And we’re back.
Rick: That was quick.
Vish: That was pretty quick. It’s a short song in some ways…That was Pitchfork with “Burn Pigs, Burn” from their Eucalyptus lp. We’re here today chatting with Rick Froberg whom some of you might know from the Hot Snakes and Drive Like Jehu. [Pitchfork] was another band he was in with John Reis. I wanted to ask about that period again. I know after Pitchfork, John got Rocket from the Crypt going roughly around that time and then the two of you started to work on Drive Like Jehu. Is that correct?
Rick: Around 1990 I suppose.
Vish: Drive Like Jehu was such a breath of fresh air when I first heard it, which was probably around the time the band ceased to be. I remember being in high school and it was somewhere around 1994 or 95. I know the band meant a lot to people while it was around and that adoration seems to have grown in the last ten years. Did you feel like the band was onto something unique while you were in it?
Rick: Sure, I suppose. I don’t know how worried about uniqueness we were. We probably were; I’m not sure. I don’t really know the extent of the band’s popularity or anything like that but yeah, we thought we were a good band.
Vish: The band’s name pops up in different retrospective avenues. People talk about the best post-hardcore bands of the 90s and things like that. What do you think of the respect it’s earned in retrospect.
Rick: I don’t really know much about that. The extent of my knowledge of any sort of influence is basically people yelling songs out while the Hot Snakes are playing. That’s pretty much all I’ve really heard about it. I haven’t heard anything elsewhere; I don’t see the name dropped when I look at magazines and that’s the only place I’d see it I’d imagine. As far as bands that sound like Drive Like Jehu, y’know…there’s a lot of bands that sounded like Drive Like Jehu when you listen to them. That whole long-winded guitar song thing wasn’t that unique. I think there were other bands doing that at the time. So, I really don’t know how influential we were or if we were but I’ll take your word for it.
Vish: Obviously it’s difficult to be objective about that kind of thing but, if you can trust me, the band meant a lot to a lot of people.
Rick: Well, I know I can trust you.
Vish: (laughs) I appreciate that. What about people yelling out songs? Is it ever awkward for the rest of the band to play Drive Like Jehu songs?
Rick: We played a couple just because people wanted to hear them. They’re fun to play and no one else is gonna play them. We played a couple that were really not anything like what Hot Snakes were doing just because we wanted to do something different and have a looser element, just adding something to our set that we could mess around with a bit more.
Vish: [Drive Like Jehu] never officially ended right? It just sort of stopped if that can be said. I remember reading that somewhere.
Rick: Well, that’s ending.
Vish: It is ending, yeah I know, but I wonder if, in this age of reunions…has that ever been brought up between the four members [in Drive Like Jehu]?
Rick: I’m sure it was brought up a while ago but I don’t think it’s come up for quite a while.
Vish: Well, I was hoping to play something off of one of the two Drive Like Jehu albums now for people to hear. Again, I hate to put you in this spot here Rick but do you care to pick a song here?
Rick: Ummm…
Vish: I know this is awkward. I ask people this every once in a while and they—
Rick: I’m gonna leave that to you…
Vish: Geez Louise…
Rick: That’s the DJ’s job (laughs). I don’t want to hear any of them (laughs)! That’s the problem. I don’t know if people like to sit and listen to their own bands but I really don’t. I like listening to them just after we recorded something. Otherwise, I don’t really—I wouldn’t get up and put on a Drive Like Jehu record (laughs).
Vish: Right, right, I understand. I can totally appreciate that. I guess the reason I ask is because I hope it will give some insight as to what…like if you had to show…y’know, imagine this was like…nah, just forget it, it’s fine.
Rick: (Laughs)
Vish: I’ll just pick a song. I was trying to think of a scenario where you’d have to like, ‘hey, wanna hear a Drive Like Jehu song that I’m particularly proud of? Why not this one?’ That’s what I was trying to get at.
Rick: Before I was being executed or something like that?
Vish: Yeah.
Rick: Yeah, I don’t know what I’d do in that situation. I’ll tell you when I get there.
Vish: All right. Well, let’s see here. How about “Step on Chameleon?”
Rick: Anything you want.
Vish: Aw, you’re so nice. I appreciate that. All right, here’s “Step On Chameleon” by Drive Like Jehu on the Mich Vish Interracial Morning Show. We’ll be back with more with Rick Froberg in just a second.
Drive Like Jehu – Step on Chameleon
s/t
Vish: And we’re back.
Rick: Oh….
Vish: Geez, what’d you think there, “Step on Chameleon,” that was—
Rick: That’s great, I hadn’t heard that in a long time…
Vish: Yeah well, it’s nice to go back down memory lane. For some people. Welcome back folks to the Mich Vish Interracial Morning Show. Again, that was Drive Like Jehu with “Step On Chameleon” from their…self-titled album? Is that…uh…
Rick: I think it’s a….is it eponymous?
Vish: I think so, yes. I think it’s eponymous; that’s the term that people use. Yes. Yes, it’s their eponymous album. Debut album! Debut eponymous album? It gets…
Rick: It is the debut album.
Vish: It gets complicated. Right. We’re back, as I say. That was Drive Like Jehu. My name’s Vish. We’ve been chatting with Rick Froberg of the Hot Snakes. We’ve just been going down memory lane a little bit. Rick, dating back to Pitchfork and Drive Like Jehu and then right up to Hot Snakes, I’ve personally really enjoyed the songs you’ve written. I think they’re often pretty intense musically and I appreciate that they can be both very cryptic and very direct. What do you suppose has inspired your songwriting?
Rick: My songwriting? Different things at different times I’m sure. Usually other, better bands. In a band, you’re trying to ape things that you like about music that you like. That seems strange but it’s true. And you know, random things that make it different are things you have no control over and are unique to yourself and that’s what makes it different from other things.
Vish: I’m sure it runs the gamut but are there particular influences you’d care to cite that people might either be surprised be or think, ‘Yeah, that makes sense.’
Rick: Well, if you’re talking about Drive Like Jehu, bands we’re always citing are The Wipers (http://www.zenorecords.com/) and, I think for that band especially, Honor Role who are a band from Richmond, Virginia in the 80s who we really liked. They had a great guitar player named Pen Rollings and lead singer Robert Schick. They were just a good band in general and we liked them a lot and probably aped them quite a bit. I’m sure we aped Fugazi, who we were big fans of.
Vish: Who hasn’t aped Fugazi really?
Rick: Um, I don’t know but we were really into the band so there’s probably a lot of that in there. I think we pretty consciously didn’t want to sound like them but we were also consciously influenced by them.
Vish: I think hundreds of thousands of people were certainly influenced by them.
Rick: Right. And you know, listening to punk rock. Your Sonic Youth, your Minor Threat and Government Issue—whatever, all that stuff.
Vish: In terms of the Hot Snakes sound, it’s a bit more streamlined, a bit more succinct I guess, at least relative to the last band…
Rick: Well, it’s a lot more succinct, yeah.
Vish: What brought that on in terms of a newer approach?
Rick: Well, for me, I never really liked 10-minute long songs as much. Being the singer, it really wasn’t all that oriented to me so much. I think as a result, I never learned how to sing correctly or sing like a singer sings. When a song’s going ‘ahn- ahn-ahn’ over and over again it’s like, ‘god.’ So, I was glad that we had shorter songs with clear choruses and verses and stuff like that. We definitely didn’t want it to be anything like Drive Like Jehu though.
Vish: Obviously with you and John in it, it still contains elements, personal stamps…
Rick: Well, it’s the same people so whatever the same prejudices and stuff they had in that band, they probably brought them with them.
Vish: Right, right. Well, it was a great band and I will miss it. I’m gonna ask you about the future in a moment. Before that I did want to ask you about something that has always interested me. You seem content to be kind of ambiguous about the bands you’re in. There are often pseudonyms and very plain messages in liner notes and websites and things like that. Why do you suppose you’ve approached communicating…
Rick: That’s not ambiguity, that’s brevity and clarity…I dunno…It’s just trying to cut to the chase, y’know?
Vish: In terms of clarity, there’s the pseudonym thing. I must come back to that. The fake names, the nicknames.
Rick: The nicknames: ‘Fork.’ Obviously I got that nickname when I was in Pitchfork; ‘Froberg,’ is the name that I was given on my birth certificate and that is actually the name I was born with; ‘Farr’ is the name that my family had it changed to when I was I don’t know how old. It was because it was my dad’s business name and he just decided to change the entire family’s name to that, much to my chagrin.
Vish: So there’s actually…okay. There’s not some sort of…
Rick: No.
Vish: You’ve outlined quite clearly the connections between all of the names.
Rick: Yeah, that’s it.
Vish: There is no ambiguity.
Rick: There is no ambiguity there.
Vish: Oh. Well. There goes my question.
Rick: Sorry.
Vish: No, no it’s fine. Even within the website though I often feel like, yes it is very to the point but also, within that, it’s kind of left up in the air. You’re not spelling out all the things for people to figure out. It seems like they’re left to their own devices every once in a while.
Rick: Which you are anyway, so you might as well be left to your own devices and save your breath.
Vish: Right. Well, I appreciate that. Well, finally now that the Hot Snakes are, I believe, done. Is there any unfinished Hot Snakes business because I heard something about a DVD that might come out?
Rick: Um, there might be yeah. It was filmed and the footage exists. I’m not sure what John’s plans are for that. That’s all Swami and John’s the proprietor and he’ll decide whether or not that’s gonna come out.
Vish: Just to explain to people, what was it exactly? It was the last couple of shows?
Rick: Our last San Diego and Los Angeles show were videotaped/filmed.
Vish: That was this month? In August?
Rick: Yeah.
Vish: So they were filmed for the possibility of a release at some point.
Rick: Right. The whole thing was originally supposed to happen in London but that ended up not working out for whatever reason. We ended up doing it with some friends in Los Angeles and San Diego. So yeah, hopefully they’ll put it out. I’m not…y’know, whatever, I’m not sure if they’re putting it out or not. They went to all that trouble so I would imagine that it’s probably going to come out in some form.
Vish: Well, assuming then that, after that, the Hot Snakes are through as you say, I’m wondering, can people expect a new band or musical project from you or from you and John at some point?
Rick: Um, probably not myself and John because we’d have the exact same problem with the distance thing. As far as other bands, I’m sure there will be other bands. How beyond a local level they’ll get and how far they’ll get really depends on a lot of things. You never know. I’m sure that everyone’s gonna play music still.
Vish: You’re in Brooklyn now?
Rick: That’s correct.
Vish: And what brought you to Brooklyn?
Rick: Originally I had a girlfriend who lived out here and I moved out to live with her and ended up staying here long after the demise of the whole thing.
Vish: I see. I didn’t mean to pry. I thought it might have something to do with your artwork.
Rick: It had nothing to do with my artwork. It does at this point because I can’t leave because what I do for a living is artwork and I really can’t do it any place else and make any money.
Vish: Right, I had a sense of that. Not that you couldn’t make money obviously; how would I know that?
Rick: Well, I still like New York, I still like Brooklyn so I don’t mind living here. I wish I could move to some place better here but that’s the way it goes.
Vish: It’s an expensive place to live.
Rick: Yeah, every place is getting expensive so it’s probably not much different than any place else at this point.
Vish: Are you making friends within a musical community there?
Rick: I have some friends here and most of them are involved in music in one way or another but I don’t feel like we’re part of any kind of scene.
Vish: I just wondered if there was some sense of collaboration forthcoming or any talk of that on your end of things any way.
Rick: There’s a few things potentially but they’re so early on in the whole thing that I dunno…We’ll just have to see (laughs).
Vish: Well, thanks for joining us today Rick
Rick: Oh no problem. Thanks for having me.
(Closing banter. Rick won’t pick a Hot Snakes song. “Wacky Dave and Mitch” are invoked for some reason)
My name’s Vish and I’m very thrilled to tell you about our guest this week. He has played guitar and sang in such great San Diego-based bands as Pitchfork, Drive Like Jehu, and the Hot Snakes. He is one of punk music’s most interesting lyricists and singular vocalists and he’s also an acclaimed visual artist whose work was recently exhibited as part of the 2005 Basefield Exhibition in Melbourne, Australia. He’s also designed album covers, websites, and t-shirts for most of the bands he’s been in plus his good friends Rocket From the Crypt and Swami Records. His amazing band the Hot Snakes called it a day this month, which made us want to call him up and find out why. So, without further adieu, ladies and gentleman, all the way from Brooklyn, NY, please say hello to Rick Froberg.
Pitchfork – Burn Pigs, Burn
Eucalyptus
Vish: And we’re back.
Rick: That was quick.
Vish: That was pretty quick. It’s a short song in some ways…That was Pitchfork with “Burn Pigs, Burn” from their Eucalyptus lp. We’re here today chatting with Rick Froberg whom some of you might know from the Hot Snakes and Drive Like Jehu. [Pitchfork] was another band he was in with John Reis. I wanted to ask about that period again. I know after Pitchfork, John got Rocket from the Crypt going roughly around that time and then the two of you started to work on Drive Like Jehu. Is that correct?
Rick: Around 1990 I suppose.
Vish: Drive Like Jehu was such a breath of fresh air when I first heard it, which was probably around the time the band ceased to be. I remember being in high school and it was somewhere around 1994 or 95. I know the band meant a lot to people while it was around and that adoration seems to have grown in the last ten years. Did you feel like the band was onto something unique while you were in it?
Rick: Sure, I suppose. I don’t know how worried about uniqueness we were. We probably were; I’m not sure. I don’t really know the extent of the band’s popularity or anything like that but yeah, we thought we were a good band.
Vish: The band’s name pops up in different retrospective avenues. People talk about the best post-hardcore bands of the 90s and things like that. What do you think of the respect it’s earned in retrospect.
Rick: I don’t really know much about that. The extent of my knowledge of any sort of influence is basically people yelling songs out while the Hot Snakes are playing. That’s pretty much all I’ve really heard about it. I haven’t heard anything elsewhere; I don’t see the name dropped when I look at magazines and that’s the only place I’d see it I’d imagine. As far as bands that sound like Drive Like Jehu, y’know…there’s a lot of bands that sounded like Drive Like Jehu when you listen to them. That whole long-winded guitar song thing wasn’t that unique. I think there were other bands doing that at the time. So, I really don’t know how influential we were or if we were but I’ll take your word for it.
Vish: Obviously it’s difficult to be objective about that kind of thing but, if you can trust me, the band meant a lot to a lot of people.
Rick: Well, I know I can trust you.
Vish: (laughs) I appreciate that. What about people yelling out songs? Is it ever awkward for the rest of the band to play Drive Like Jehu songs?
Rick: We played a couple just because people wanted to hear them. They’re fun to play and no one else is gonna play them. We played a couple that were really not anything like what Hot Snakes were doing just because we wanted to do something different and have a looser element, just adding something to our set that we could mess around with a bit more.
Vish: [Drive Like Jehu] never officially ended right? It just sort of stopped if that can be said. I remember reading that somewhere.
Rick: Well, that’s ending.
Vish: It is ending, yeah I know, but I wonder if, in this age of reunions…has that ever been brought up between the four members [in Drive Like Jehu]?
Rick: I’m sure it was brought up a while ago but I don’t think it’s come up for quite a while.
Vish: Well, I was hoping to play something off of one of the two Drive Like Jehu albums now for people to hear. Again, I hate to put you in this spot here Rick but do you care to pick a song here?
Rick: Ummm…
Vish: I know this is awkward. I ask people this every once in a while and they—
Rick: I’m gonna leave that to you…
Vish: Geez Louise…
Rick: That’s the DJ’s job (laughs). I don’t want to hear any of them (laughs)! That’s the problem. I don’t know if people like to sit and listen to their own bands but I really don’t. I like listening to them just after we recorded something. Otherwise, I don’t really—I wouldn’t get up and put on a Drive Like Jehu record (laughs).
Vish: Right, right, I understand. I can totally appreciate that. I guess the reason I ask is because I hope it will give some insight as to what…like if you had to show…y’know, imagine this was like…nah, just forget it, it’s fine.
Rick: (Laughs)
Vish: I’ll just pick a song. I was trying to think of a scenario where you’d have to like, ‘hey, wanna hear a Drive Like Jehu song that I’m particularly proud of? Why not this one?’ That’s what I was trying to get at.
Rick: Before I was being executed or something like that?
Vish: Yeah.
Rick: Yeah, I don’t know what I’d do in that situation. I’ll tell you when I get there.
Vish: All right. Well, let’s see here. How about “Step on Chameleon?”
Rick: Anything you want.
Vish: Aw, you’re so nice. I appreciate that. All right, here’s “Step On Chameleon” by Drive Like Jehu on the Mich Vish Interracial Morning Show. We’ll be back with more with Rick Froberg in just a second.
Drive Like Jehu – Step on Chameleon
s/t
Vish: And we’re back.
Rick: Oh….
Vish: Geez, what’d you think there, “Step on Chameleon,” that was—
Rick: That’s great, I hadn’t heard that in a long time…
Vish: Yeah well, it’s nice to go back down memory lane. For some people. Welcome back folks to the Mich Vish Interracial Morning Show. Again, that was Drive Like Jehu with “Step On Chameleon” from their…self-titled album? Is that…uh…
Rick: I think it’s a….is it eponymous?
Vish: I think so, yes. I think it’s eponymous; that’s the term that people use. Yes. Yes, it’s their eponymous album. Debut album! Debut eponymous album? It gets…
Rick: It is the debut album.
Vish: It gets complicated. Right. We’re back, as I say. That was Drive Like Jehu. My name’s Vish. We’ve been chatting with Rick Froberg of the Hot Snakes. We’ve just been going down memory lane a little bit. Rick, dating back to Pitchfork and Drive Like Jehu and then right up to Hot Snakes, I’ve personally really enjoyed the songs you’ve written. I think they’re often pretty intense musically and I appreciate that they can be both very cryptic and very direct. What do you suppose has inspired your songwriting?
Rick: My songwriting? Different things at different times I’m sure. Usually other, better bands. In a band, you’re trying to ape things that you like about music that you like. That seems strange but it’s true. And you know, random things that make it different are things you have no control over and are unique to yourself and that’s what makes it different from other things.
Vish: I’m sure it runs the gamut but are there particular influences you’d care to cite that people might either be surprised be or think, ‘Yeah, that makes sense.’
Rick: Well, if you’re talking about Drive Like Jehu, bands we’re always citing are The Wipers (http://www.zenorecords.com/) and, I think for that band especially, Honor Role who are a band from Richmond, Virginia in the 80s who we really liked. They had a great guitar player named Pen Rollings and lead singer Robert Schick. They were just a good band in general and we liked them a lot and probably aped them quite a bit. I’m sure we aped Fugazi, who we were big fans of.
Vish: Who hasn’t aped Fugazi really?
Rick: Um, I don’t know but we were really into the band so there’s probably a lot of that in there. I think we pretty consciously didn’t want to sound like them but we were also consciously influenced by them.
Vish: I think hundreds of thousands of people were certainly influenced by them.
Rick: Right. And you know, listening to punk rock. Your Sonic Youth, your Minor Threat and Government Issue—whatever, all that stuff.
Vish: In terms of the Hot Snakes sound, it’s a bit more streamlined, a bit more succinct I guess, at least relative to the last band…
Rick: Well, it’s a lot more succinct, yeah.
Vish: What brought that on in terms of a newer approach?
Rick: Well, for me, I never really liked 10-minute long songs as much. Being the singer, it really wasn’t all that oriented to me so much. I think as a result, I never learned how to sing correctly or sing like a singer sings. When a song’s going ‘ahn- ahn-ahn’ over and over again it’s like, ‘god.’ So, I was glad that we had shorter songs with clear choruses and verses and stuff like that. We definitely didn’t want it to be anything like Drive Like Jehu though.
Vish: Obviously with you and John in it, it still contains elements, personal stamps…
Rick: Well, it’s the same people so whatever the same prejudices and stuff they had in that band, they probably brought them with them.
Vish: Right, right. Well, it was a great band and I will miss it. I’m gonna ask you about the future in a moment. Before that I did want to ask you about something that has always interested me. You seem content to be kind of ambiguous about the bands you’re in. There are often pseudonyms and very plain messages in liner notes and websites and things like that. Why do you suppose you’ve approached communicating…
Rick: That’s not ambiguity, that’s brevity and clarity…I dunno…It’s just trying to cut to the chase, y’know?
Vish: In terms of clarity, there’s the pseudonym thing. I must come back to that. The fake names, the nicknames.
Rick: The nicknames: ‘Fork.’ Obviously I got that nickname when I was in Pitchfork; ‘Froberg,’ is the name that I was given on my birth certificate and that is actually the name I was born with; ‘Farr’ is the name that my family had it changed to when I was I don’t know how old. It was because it was my dad’s business name and he just decided to change the entire family’s name to that, much to my chagrin.
Vish: So there’s actually…okay. There’s not some sort of…
Rick: No.
Vish: You’ve outlined quite clearly the connections between all of the names.
Rick: Yeah, that’s it.
Vish: There is no ambiguity.
Rick: There is no ambiguity there.
Vish: Oh. Well. There goes my question.
Rick: Sorry.
Vish: No, no it’s fine. Even within the website though I often feel like, yes it is very to the point but also, within that, it’s kind of left up in the air. You’re not spelling out all the things for people to figure out. It seems like they’re left to their own devices every once in a while.
Rick: Which you are anyway, so you might as well be left to your own devices and save your breath.
Vish: Right. Well, I appreciate that. Well, finally now that the Hot Snakes are, I believe, done. Is there any unfinished Hot Snakes business because I heard something about a DVD that might come out?
Rick: Um, there might be yeah. It was filmed and the footage exists. I’m not sure what John’s plans are for that. That’s all Swami and John’s the proprietor and he’ll decide whether or not that’s gonna come out.
Vish: Just to explain to people, what was it exactly? It was the last couple of shows?
Rick: Our last San Diego and Los Angeles show were videotaped/filmed.
Vish: That was this month? In August?
Rick: Yeah.
Vish: So they were filmed for the possibility of a release at some point.
Rick: Right. The whole thing was originally supposed to happen in London but that ended up not working out for whatever reason. We ended up doing it with some friends in Los Angeles and San Diego. So yeah, hopefully they’ll put it out. I’m not…y’know, whatever, I’m not sure if they’re putting it out or not. They went to all that trouble so I would imagine that it’s probably going to come out in some form.
Vish: Well, assuming then that, after that, the Hot Snakes are through as you say, I’m wondering, can people expect a new band or musical project from you or from you and John at some point?
Rick: Um, probably not myself and John because we’d have the exact same problem with the distance thing. As far as other bands, I’m sure there will be other bands. How beyond a local level they’ll get and how far they’ll get really depends on a lot of things. You never know. I’m sure that everyone’s gonna play music still.
Vish: You’re in Brooklyn now?
Rick: That’s correct.
Vish: And what brought you to Brooklyn?
Rick: Originally I had a girlfriend who lived out here and I moved out to live with her and ended up staying here long after the demise of the whole thing.
Vish: I see. I didn’t mean to pry. I thought it might have something to do with your artwork.
Rick: It had nothing to do with my artwork. It does at this point because I can’t leave because what I do for a living is artwork and I really can’t do it any place else and make any money.
Vish: Right, I had a sense of that. Not that you couldn’t make money obviously; how would I know that?
Rick: Well, I still like New York, I still like Brooklyn so I don’t mind living here. I wish I could move to some place better here but that’s the way it goes.
Vish: It’s an expensive place to live.
Rick: Yeah, every place is getting expensive so it’s probably not much different than any place else at this point.
Vish: Are you making friends within a musical community there?
Rick: I have some friends here and most of them are involved in music in one way or another but I don’t feel like we’re part of any kind of scene.
Vish: I just wondered if there was some sense of collaboration forthcoming or any talk of that on your end of things any way.
Rick: There’s a few things potentially but they’re so early on in the whole thing that I dunno…We’ll just have to see (laughs).
Vish: Well, thanks for joining us today Rick
Rick: Oh no problem. Thanks for having me.
(Closing banter. Rick won’t pick a Hot Snakes song. “Wacky Dave and Mitch” are invoked for some reason)