Don't get me wrong, I know some truly intelligent Christians. I also think trying to talk someone out of faith is as misguided as trying to talk them into it. No, I don't think we need a 'Christianity is wrong' thread. What I'm interested in probably appeals to a smaller crowd. I have put a little more study into the Bible and Christian philosophy than some of the atheist/agnostic/secular folks I know (which isn't saying much, as most avoid it like the plague) because I find it interesting. While living in a majority Christian nation I often find myself pondering so many of the strange details of the whole thing.

Example:

The whole God loved the world so much he gave his only begotten son thing. I know someone has judiciously split the theological hairs here, but roughly isn't all of humanity basically God's children? Like, didn't he kind of make the whole thing? I know the Holy Spirit inseminated Mary (hot), much to Joseph's chagrin, but you think about it that's a lot of effort to try and put Jesus in a more special category than the rest of the world, even though God made everything anyways.

Another example:

The passion play/crucifixion narrative. There seems to be so much effort put into highlighting the torturous agony of that man's death to make it seem really special. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't sign up for it (although I had a friend in college who argued anyone would if they knew that it would make them the most famous person in history) a ton of people were crucified in those times. Torture was tragically ubiquitous. The weird S&M thing to make the ordeal as viscerally brutal as possible is a weird effort to try and emphasize the importance of the guy. It feels pretty bogus.

Last one:

Why the fuck was a very eloquent snake hanging out in the Garden of Eden on a very newly minted Earth? How did the boss let that happen? I had a professor in college who felt that the inclusion of the snake in Genesis reduced God's standing and made him the most powerful in a kind of pantheon as opposed to the absolute only entity.

Anyhow, if you ever toy with these notions in a comedic sense, or in some deeper Nietzshean way have at it. This stuff fascinates me.

How did snakes get around before they were cursed in Genesis to crawl on their belly. Is that what you mean? Like, did God do some gene-editing post the Tree of Life debacle to hobble the serpent?

rsmurphy wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:35 pm How did snakes get around before they were cursed in Genesis to crawl on their belly. Is that what you mean? Like, did God do some gene-editing post the Tree of Life debacle to hobble the serpent?

No, but that's another great tangent to explore.

What I mean is the entire Eden was set up by God, under his control except the freewill of humans. But somehow after making everything he wasn't in control of some smooth talking motherfucker in the tree of forbidden fruit? He's like "Hey, there was nothing and I made all of this, but don't listen to that guy. Not sure where he came from."

This is why evangelicals tried to retcon Satan into it but that doesn't hold up textually.

I have no idea if this is what you're looking for, but...

The problem of Hell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell) is one of the biggest conundrums for me, i.e., how can an all-loving and all-forgiving God send anyone to Hell for all of eternity?

If I decided to join the Church again (doubtful, but slightly greater than zero probability), universalism is probably the only brand of Christianity I could get on board with.

The concept of hell is a funny one. I remember reading an article in the Guardian about Jimmy Savile by I can't remember the fuck who, but they were really bummed out that Jimmy Savile had died before he was prosecuted for his crimes. Probably because he was best mates with King Charles and the establishment had been covering it up for decades. But it prompted me to think, well, who cares now? He's dead. He doesn't remember if he got away with it or he didn't. What's the difference? He's just dirt now.

But then she closed the article by saying, I hope there is a hell and Jimmy Savile is in it.

WOW, not only do you hope that Jimmy Savile is in hell, but you HOPE THAT HELL EXISTS just to punish Jimmy Savile. All right, wish granted. Hell exists.

And here's Jimmy Savile being punished for all the children he raped when he wasn't hanging with King Charles, or maybe even when he was, who knows. Look, he's being flayed alive, again and again. Good job too.

Let's revisit him in a thousand years. Still being flayed eh, Jimmy? Tough break. Well, that's hell for you. A Guardian writer wished it into existence, just for you. She's here too now though, because wishing hell into existence was the most evil act ever committed. But I guess I don't need to tell YOU that, eh Jimmy? Not while you're getting your face taken off with sandpaper.

Now a million years has passed. Poor old Jimmy. Things are getting repetitive, so let's quickly fast-forward to a billion trillion years for every atom in the universe into the future.

Here's Jimmy, still being tortured. Are you sorry for what you did now, Jimmy? What's that? You don't remember what you did? You don't remember anything about the Earth at all, only an eternity of pain? Well bad news Jimmy, we're just getting started here. You've still got 100% of your punishment to go. Eternal damnation you see. You did rape a bunch of kids, though Jimmy. This is justice.

Crucifiction story - my take: Jesus was fully expecting that the Kingdom of God was going to be happening on Earth not at some undetermined point in the future but right NOW brothers and sisters, and when he kicked off and threw the money-lenders out of the temple he was kinda expecting God would back him up, but God never showed. In short Jesus got himself a bit of a Messiah complex and the Romans said ok playtime's over now and turned him into a scarecrow.

A hundred years later St Paul comes along and explains that it was yeah, totally the plan all along and Jesus absolutely MEANT for that to happen.

Anthony Flack wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 7:11 am WOW, not only do you hope that Jimmy Savile is in hell, but you HOPE THAT HELL EXISTS just to punish Jimmy Savile. All right, wish granted. Hell exists.

Yeah, I have tested my feelings by thinking about the worst people that ever existed, and I can get on board with purgatorial hell.

I just have serious problems with "well, you don't believe in this version of God, which ended up being the true one, so you're going to Hell for all of eternity."

Yeah, hell is a tough nut to crack. The idea of an unchanging eternal stasis- pleasureful reward, or agonizing punishment is problematic to me. But let's focus on hell since there were some good comments on that one.

Satan especially, and hell to a lesser extent have minimal biblical importance and yet became core tenets of Christian faith at least as far back as the Protestant reformation. They were the core concepts driving the religious culture at the time of the Salem Witch Hunt and to this day there's an evangelical sense the the devil is always around the corner.

I've never gotten over a podcast I heard with a pastor talking about his spiritual journey. He was incredibly popular with a large congregation and had a kind of epiphany that totally deflated hell for him. It no longer squared with his concept of God and the universe. He rejected the idea of a devil and hell altogether. Then his congregation and church furiously rejected him. He had to start a new, much smaller church. The moral of the story, to me, was that the believers in his community had a deep pillar of their faith, not in God's greatness or forgiveness, Jesus' sacrifice for mankind, but evil, hell and Satan. An offended backlash due to faith in the devil from Christians seems appropriately absurd to me.

Of course I don't expect antisemites to be logical, but the idea that Christians should blame Jews for killing Jesus... um, but wasn't that God's Plan? I thought Jesus came down to Earth specifically to die for our sins? So by that rationale, whoever killed Jesus was doing everybody a favour. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

"Forgive them, Father; they know not what they do. Also pretty sure this whole thing was your idea"

Anthony Flack wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:14 am Of course I don't expect antisemites to be logical, but the idea that Christians should blame Jews for killing Jesus... um, but wasn't that God's Plan? I thought Jesus came down to Earth specifically to die for our sins? So by that rationale, whoever killed Jesus was doing everybody a favour. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

"Forgive them, Father; they know not what they do. Also pretty sure this whole thing was your idea"

Jorge Luis Borges has a short story about a man who lionizes Judas because he took it on himself to be the scapegoat in God's plan.

I also have considerable misgivings about the idea of an eternal hell. Seems more in alignment with God's mercy to have what theologians call annihilationism. This is where the conscious mind eventually gets destroyed if the soul never made it to heaven.

Jesus did know He would eventually be killed. The gospels are filled with comments premonitory of that fate. He probably realized Isaiah 53 was about this.