steve wrote:Put differently, if something makes sense to me, I will need strong evidence to convince me it isn't so. I think this is sound thinking, provided I am open to hearing the evidence, and I think I am.

if you would like to read up on this subject, perhaps _terror and liberalism_ by paul berman is a good place to start.

otherwise, i'm done debating this topic. it's too complicated and too important to kick it around like this. obviously i am not capable of encapsulating the relevant information as message board nuggets, though not for lack of trying.

...

solum wrote:But if I do will you read Good Muslim, Bad Muslim by Mahmood Mamdani?

certainly

I imagine the implication here is that we will have the 'correct' understanding of what Al Q *really* mean once we have read some of the books you have read.

i'm not implying anything. people can believe what they want to believe. but when it's simply belief at issue, i'm just tired of kicking that dead horse. 'i think, i think, i think.'

exposure to some of these ideas in long form will at least provide a framework for discussing them. the framework that exists right now is not satisfying to me.

if people want to continue to equate the republican party or american expansionism with islamist terror action, then, you know, knock yourselves out.

Also, you may well (both) have read it, but I'd like to suggest John Gray's Al Qaeda and what it means to be modern. It doesn' t deal with the subject of this argument directly, but it is short, clear and interesting (and written by a man of no little eminence).

excellent

by citing two actual books, you have given me something to chew on.
thank you.

It seems to me your argument boils down to this: "I have read books on this subject, and therefore any argument is cut off--I am qualified and you are not."

my argument is simply that it's a complicated subject that may not (does not) fit into pet notions we have about politics and organizational motivation

a minimum amount of detail is necessary to have a reasonable discussion about it. i don't think this recent whack at it has risen to the level of a reasonable discussion. and i don't think there's been much effort to dig up new information since the last go-round. 'i'm bored and irritated' is my real point.

It's a llama, see?

Just to add to the list of books being suggested here, Jason Burke of the Guardian/Observer is one person that's been consistently insightful about the nature of Al Qaeda.
Al Qaeda: The True Story Of Radical Islam is an enlightening read.

Rimbaud III wrote:Just to add to the list of books being suggested here, Jason Burke of the Guardian/Observer is one person that's been consistently insightful about the nature of Al Qaeda.
Al Qaeda: The True Story Of Radical Islam is an enlightening read.

goddamn it, rambo, how many times am i going to have to revise this fucking amazon order?

just kidding emoticon indicating 'just kidding'

thanks. i like that guy's stuff in the papers.

tmidgett wrote:just kidding emoticon indicating 'just kidding'

Apparently this thing, , means just kidding according to this site.

You can thank me later.

solum wrote:Maybe I'll take up your suggestion here. But if I do will you read Good Muslim, Bad Muslim by Mahmood Mamdani?

I was just looking at the Amazon reviews of this book (which, by the way, looks really interesting), when I noticed this particularly negative review at the bottom of the page:

Bad Muslim, April 30, 2005

Reviewer: Irwin N. Graulich (New York) - See all my reviews

There are many good Muslims. Unfortunately, the author, Mr. Mamdani is not one of them. He is one of those verbal terrorists who continues to blame America and Israel for his own disastrous failures and the inability of the Arab and Muslim world to get past the 15th century. The chapters on America and Israel's Genocidal activities are filled with such ridiculous points that any 9 year old could refute them.

If you would like to read a pathetic comedy, this is the right book. However, it is more of a waste of good trees. Mahmood is just another leftist professor who continues to criticize and abuse the hand that feeds him, America. He is no different than the troubled child who abuses his wonderful parents, and his silly book proves it.

Irwin N. Graulich

As soon as I started reading I noticed a familiar tone and style to the writing. I glanced at the name and recognised it from somewhere. After pondering it for a few seconds it suddenly struck me where I had seen it before. I remembered it from here, Letters to Norman J Finkelstein. I remembered Irwin N. Graulich as a particularly hilarious and caustic critic of Mr. Finkelstein. Here is one of his great letters:

Hey Norm
>
>If you would stop masturbating all over your computer, you would see
> that I did not want an answer from an ignoramus. If you cannot
>take the criticism, I suggest you get out of the kitchen. You are
>an embarrassment to the 6 million Jews who died. Oh sorry,
>according to you, that is probably an exaggerated figure. It was
>actually 64 Jews who were murdered in The Holocaust!
>
>By the way, I just want you to know that I am not just some angry
>guy who saw your speech. I am a well known speaker and writer on
>ethics, morality, Judaism and politics. Macro truth is one of the
>most important values and I hate people like you who are frauds.
>Put my name into Google and perhaps you will learn something.
>
>You are single, aren't you?
>
>Irwin N. Graulich
>President
>Bloch Graulich Whelan Inc.
>333 Park Avenue South
>New York, NY 10010

In another attack on someone defending Finkelstein he says :

> What animal did your mother fuck to have a mutant creature like
> you? You should be in a zoo as some new species. I suggest you
> check the websites within the next few days for a brand new article
> about that idea.
>
> Why do I think you do not live in America and are just a pathetic
> little foreign species trying to infiltrate the Human race. But we are
> wise to you. Your mother was diseased.

Salut Irwin N. Graulich! You are a very funny and busy man about the internet.

Whoa!!!
There is actually one buiilt in the emoticons on here.

All that painstaking research for nothing.