floog wrote:It was a "you" general (as in "one should...") not a "you" personal. But I can see why it was misunderstood.

Ok, cool, I gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. Sorry for the misguided response!

steve wrote:unarmeddude, you remain concerned with your fear of being "labeled," as though we weren't giving you credit for having a unique perspective. I think this is unnecessarily defensive on your part. You should be more concerned with the content of what everyone (including you) is saying.

I am allowed to notice when you say things that are consistent with other right-winger rhetoric, and I when I do, you will help yourself if you discuss the topic rather than decrying the "label."

Ok, no prob., emotional reset button pressed, labels erased. All is good! But I'm still not seeing much of a difference between what we wrote earlier, when I wrote:

I'm not suggesting there be some law on the books to hamper immigrants from being able to enjoy their culture in America. I'm just suggesting that english should continue to be encouraged, promoted, and spoken.

And a few posts later you wrote:

Those who benefit from speaking english, which is the default language of national and international commerce, will surely learn it. Those who are content to live within a local sphere should not be compelled to do so.

Is it a good idea for immigrants to learn english? Probably. Should it be national policy and codified into law? Not unless a similar expectation is placed on the Executive.

I keed.

anarchyinthebronx wrote:Ah no, English is the official language in the United States and has been for the last few hundred years. English is what is used in public schools, businesses, restaurants, stores etc..

this is a bit of a narrow world view...

i imagine your upbringing is such that you are seeing this through your own eyes and experiences. (let me guess- you are white and grew up in the burbs? forgive me if I am wrong, but it sure sounds that way..)

although my upbringing is white and partially suburban, my adult experience changed me and allowed me to see this from another angle. i no longer believe for a minute that english is the "official" language.

I was an elementary public school art teacher for five years in a urban school district where I traveled between seven different schools in three different socioeconomic areas. EVERY school had a program called ESOL, which basically means "english as a second language"- it was a program for children who lived in households where parents did not speak english.

we had kids from mexico, ethiopia, somalia, china, and russia. sure, they learned english, but they got most of their schooling in their native language. they lived in neighborhoods where they could survive without feeling comfortable communicating in english.

i moved to a new district near D.C. a few years later with a completely different socioeconomic make up and there was the same "ESOL" program there, this time for kids whose parents were diplomats. some of the kids were children of immigrants, illegal or not, who lived in northern virginia, and toiled in the service industries and construction in D.C.

just do a search- you'll find these programs ALL OVER the U.S.-- here are but a few examples:

http://www.colorincolorado.org/

http://www.glc.k12.ga.us/pandp/esol/homepg.htm

http://www.umbc.edu/esol/

if english were the "official" language, why would public school systems bother hiring ESOL teachers, bilingual teachers and foreign speech pathologists? why would PTAS bother printing the meeting notes in spanish, or russian?

i think you are wrong.

arrison, did they not have ESL when you were growing up? it's been around for a long time. i have heard mixed reactions to the program. some ESL students have a hard time adjusting to english speaking classes. i suppose every district treats the transitional kids differently, but that is the key. the goal is to get them all ready for full time english classes.

Johnny 13 wrote:I think it would be better if it were not an issue, especially because drawing attention to the fact that we don't have an official language is a good way to have it made into law. I doubt making an official language would mean much more to most than knowing our state snack is popcorn, or that our state bird is the cardinal, but still.

yeah, i'm of the same mind. i wish this english-only debate would go away because like you said on page 2, there is no practical reason to be arguing. the outcome is still the same. people will still speak how they want, hire people who speak their customers' language, and spend their money where they are understood.

a more necessary debate will be: should spanish AND english be official languages of the usa? then people really would have to get used to seeing spanish translations in every government building, post office, and school. the cost would be excessive and the backlash would probably hurt the ethnic communities. that's why i hope we can postpone that debate for a couple more decades...

America doesn't actually have an official language; English is simply the majority language and common tongue. They specifically decided not to chose an official language when they founded this place.

i am almost, not nearly as but almost, as pleased with the increase in spanish menus on the telephone as i am the increase in fuggin gas prices. wrizong!

Antero wrote:America doesn't actually have an official language; English is simply the majority language and common tongue. They specifically decided not to chose an official language when they founded this place.

yes, i know. is anyone not clear on that?
one more time just in case: america has no official language!

kenoki wrote:i am almost, not nearly as but almost, as pleased with the increase in spanish menus on the telephone as i am the increase in fuggin gas prices. wrizong!

the spanish menu is fine, but don't waste my time by offering it to me in english!
"to continue in spanish press 2. para continuar en espanol, numero 2. to continue in english press 1. para continuar en ingles, numero 1."
caramba!

Justin from Queens wrote:The path to citizenship is much more complex than you say.

Right. People realize that the path is long and difficult, so they switch to plan B: sneak in, work illegally, hope to stay off the government radar. They cheat. Whatever you think about the path to citizenship, as long as that path remains what it is, those who don't take it are cheaters.

Justin from Queens wrote: They want to become citizens and cannot.

Our immigration policy wasn't designed to accommodate everyone who wants to become a citizen.

Our immigration policy is a relic left over from the days when organized labor still had enough political influence to get laws passed that protected American workers from having to defend their standard of living against an onslaught of desperate poor people willing to tolerate a much lower standard of living.

Justin from Queens wrote:Arguing that, in fact, the immigration system is an incoherent mess that doesn't even reward the values that this country is supposed to celebrate.

The immigration system is an unenforced mess that rewards the corporations that bribed the government for the lax enforcement because they saw union jobs on their payrolls blocking their way to their pig troughs.

Justin from Queens wrote:And that therefore, demonizing people for being illegal immigrants is wrong.

We should have never had to come to this point. Nobody wants to demonize anyone, least of all Mexicans, if there weren't 11 million of them in the US illegally. They didn't break our immigration policy, our corporate oligarchy broke it for them.

The demonization list starts with the corporations, second on the list is the government, third on the list is labor voters, dumbasses that they often are, voting against their own interests like for Reagan twice and probably for GWB twice, too, even with their job security flushing like a toilet around their knucklish heads.

The Mexicans are about nineteenth on my list, and they only rank that high because of their shitty music..

Justin from queens, I know your post was entirely directed to Marsupialized, pardon my intrusion.

Why do any of you care if people sing the National Anthem in Spanish? How does it affect your life?

Why do you care if some communities have billboards in other languages? Do you feel as if you're missing out on some wonderful advertising campaign?

Why do any of you care if people around you speak Spanish? Are you worried that they're all talking about how tiny your dick is?

Cause they are. Loser.

anarchyinthebronx wrote:
Ah no, English is the official language in the United States and has been for the last few hundred years. English is what is used in public schools, businesses, restaurants, stores etc. I have had to stand in line at customer service in say a Target or Wal-mart for twenty minutes because a hispanic in front of me can't understand English in order to do a return or fill out a money gram. Same problem with a hispanic working at McDonalds and doesn't know how to take my order. Yeah, they need to go the extra mile and learn Ingles.

I don't want to see English or any other language "officialized", but if someone is working a job where they deal with random members of the public, even if it's in the heart of the barrio where most of the customers will keep it in Spanish, there ought to be some minimum standard of English fluency.

Mandating a reasonable degree of conformity is not racist. It's no different than the law that tells you to drive on the right side of the road. That's how we do it in America.

I would exempt restaurants featuring foreign cuisine, because restaurants are examples of other cultures on US soil- walking into a gas station, that's different.