I'm not so sure it was simply a series of blunders. It seemed more like a deliberate act to prove a point by the government. It may have been a blunder that caused the fire that destroyed the compound, but they should have known the high probability that, with the arms and ammo stored there, that such catastrophe could occur. And if they did know, that really makes it a willful deliberate act.

Earwicker wrote:

Gramsci wrote:USA government murders a bunch of fairly harmless lunatics.

hang on. That's a ludicrous conspiracy theory isn't it?

Yeah, really. Now put lunatics in charge of the US government and I think you can see where things might head- straight to 'anything goes' land. People who toss out 9/11=Inside Job because they think the gov't wouldn't kill to achieve bigger gains are the weakest conspiracy-phobes out there. They're trapped in a snow globe world and they don't even know it. Most of us know it- the big hand can reach down and flip your world around in a heartbeat. We're like the residents of an ant farm to the elites.

.eater wrote: The day of the massacre, it was actually a press photographer who spilled the beans on the impending raid. Like any press photographer, he was there hours before the feds, and apparently had to stop and ask a mail carrier for directions. "Ya, there's going to be a raid on some cult that's supposed to have a whole arsenal of firepower", he tells the mail carrier.

That's right. Some 'surprise raid'. There were multiple news crews at the scene. Bullshit psyop.

Edit: I am refering to the original attack by BATF- that raid was also leaked to the press.

Mark Hansen wrote: It may have been a blunder that caused the fire that destroyed the compound, but they should have known the high probability that, with the arms and ammo stored there, that such catastrophe could occur.

Yes, this is what I'm referring to-the escalation itself that ensued being a result of poor preparations and miscommunication in real time. "What they should have known" begs the question that the separate agencies had identical information prior to the raid, which I don't think was the case. I wish I could cite a link to the study, but it was in a textbook for a Public Admin course.

You are spot on in that Reno definitely had a point to make, and she was hoping to make an example...she just hadn't expected the compound to be ready and waiting...if anything they were better prepared than the agencies on the scene.

...

Mark Hansen wrote:
So do I. I was referring to their religious beliefs. And I certainly think I at least I implied they had the right to believe what they believed.

Including Koresh keeping a harem of pubescent girls?

garble, you have never struck me as a douchebag so I'm just gonna pretend you didn't post this.

Hopefully the rest of you will extend garble the same courtesy.

lemur68 wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:
So do I. I was referring to their religious beliefs. And I certainly think I at least I implied they had the right to believe what they believed.

Including Koresh keeping a harem of pubescent girls?

Sounds like you're describing a hostage situation. As you know, the first BATF raid did not follow a stand-off or exchange of demands. They ran in like cowboys, like they were raiding a crack house. If you want to say that Koresh's biggest crime was sex with underage girls, then why is BATF executing the warrant? Such crimes are under the jurisdiction of the state or local police.

clocker bob wrote:

lemur68 wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:
So do I. I was referring to their religious beliefs. And I certainly think I at least I implied they had the right to believe what they believed.

Including Koresh keeping a harem of pubescent girls?

Sounds like you're describing a hostage situation. As you know, the first BATF raid did not follow a stand-off or exchange of demands. They ran in like cowboys, like they were raiding a crack house. If you want to say that Koresh's biggest crime was sex with underage girls, then why is BATF executing the warrant? Such crimes are under the jurisdiction of the state or local police.

Point out where I said the ATF raid was right. I was just saying the right to freedom of religion shouldn't extend to harming other people. Like, go and practice your African animistic faith, but I'll be fucked if I concede your belief in female circumcision. Even the most rock-ribbed Libertarian believes in unfettered liberty only to the point where it infringes on the unfettered liberty of others. In the case of a 12-year-old girl whose parents got sucked up into Branch Davidianism, that's the liberty to not get diddled by a guy who claims to be Jesus.

lemur68 wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:
So do I. I was referring to their religious beliefs. And I certainly think I at least I implied they had the right to believe what they believed.

Including Koresh keeping a harem of pubescent girls?

I was talking about beliefs, not acts. If someone believes that they should have a harem of pubescent girls, that's one thing. If they act on it, that's actionable behavior that they should be held accountable for.