I don't see much difference between a legal and an illegal immigrant. It's only a difference based in bureaucracy. People should be allowed to come and go as they please between countries. It doesn't degrade sovereignty.

I'm a child of european immigrants, so this argument is more personal than most. My parents came here legally, but still struggled to get ahead. Prejudice, in this respect, is still flourishing.

The argument that they hurt American workers is crap. Outsourcing hurts this country infinitely more.

I really don't see the point in arguing "oh, but they're illegal." So what? As if the law should have bearing on a persons life if they're trying to improve it, and not hurting anyone in the process.

I also don't understand the point where you side with the immigrants, but crack down on businesses that hire them. A business should hire whoever, regardless of status. It benefits both employer and employee, as long as the employee has a decent, livable wage. A real reason to go after employers would be for not paying minimum wage in the first place.

my first generation .2 cents.

All of you saying we need to do something to normalize the process of what is now illegal immigration are not acknowledging that there is no middle ground between where we are now (illegal immigrant status) and some kind of authoritarian border control of the type made famous in the film Casablanca. Fortress-like military borders, patrol boats on every mile of coastline, traveling papers for everyone, present-on-demand IDs, the whole lot.

There is nothing in-between. If you make some special status for some number of immigrants less than actually want to be here, then the remainder will still come and behave as they all do now. After all, it is demonstrably a viable way to live.

A lot of you are saying we need to crack down on businesses that might employ illegal immigrants. Most illegal immigrants do not work in an environment where such controls will have any effect. They are either in the underground, part of the untraceable cash economy, or they have fake Social Security cards (which means they are contributing taxes and other withholdings to pay for everyone else's benefits). Big companies that want to use this labor can protect themselves by using a manpower contractor who is ultimately responsible for their employ, and these companies can be made to be disposable -- if the heat comes on they dissolve.

Immigrants are either effectively or completely hidden, and in most cases have employers who cannot be made to feel any pressure.

Rick Reuben wrote:

steve wrote:I support illegal immigrants. I don't have an opinion about whether or not they ought to be coming here, because that's the sort of risk analysis they have to make for themselves.

That's some of the dumbest shit I've ever read. How is it possible for a conscious functional adult to look at the term 'illegal immigrants' and say, "I recuse myself from offering an opinion on the legality of their status. Instead, I will pretend that the word 'illegal' is invisible to me, and I will measure them against legal immigrants. Or, I will have the incredible hubris to say that the legality of the immigrant is irrelevant."

I'm sure illegal immigrants are illegal. You can tell by the name. I am not prepared to judge them as wrong, that's all. I've broken the law myself before, as you have, as has anybody trying to conduct a normal life. I'm not omniscient, so I can't say whether or not these people ought to be coming here. I know they are going to come, like it or not, they serve a role in our society and they deserve to be respected as people.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but I hope I've made this plain enough that you can understand my position.

Rick Reuben wrote:

steve wrote:if the heat comes on they dissolve.

Really? Then why do a bunch get caught whenever the government decides to put on a rare display of law enforcement?

AP 2006 wrote:WASHINGTON - More than 1,200 people were arrested in meatpacking plants in six states during raids that federal officials said amounted to the largest-ever workplace crackdown on illegal immigration.

Had the illegals been skipping their 'dissolving' lessons, and were thus helpless when they needed to disappear?

The manpower contractors dissolve, protecting the employer from legal repercussions. "Oh those Mexicans? They work for our contractor. Here's his number."

The employer, of course, allows the immigrants to be arrested and deported.

The laws on the books regarding illegal immigrants in the workforce are very rarely enforced in the US. This is not an accident.
The term 'illegal immigrant' is a misnomer.

Rick Reuben wrote:

steve wrote: I've broken the law myself before, as you have, as has anybody trying to conduct a normal life.

Yeah, but if I got caught breaking the law, I didn't have millions of bleeding heart liberals begging for the law to ignore my crimes.

Quite a few places in the US make certain sexual acts between consenting adults illegal. Were you arrested for one of them, I would do such begging as you describe.

Some things are illegal even though they are a normal part of life. Ignoring their normalcy (and ubiquity) and concentrating on their illegality is silly. Enforcement against such "crimes" is normally lax, and it ought to be. Especially when one considers the kind of world we would need to live in in order to ensure that no sodomy occurs anywhere, or no immigrants sneak across the border.

Rick Reuben wrote:

Dr. O' Nothing wrote:The laws on the books regarding illegal immigrants in the workforce are very rarely enforced in the US. This is not an accident.
The term 'illegal immigrant' is a misnomer.

Wrong. 'misnomer' means 'using an inaccurate term'. 'illegal immigrant' is completely accurate as a term: they are illegal, they are immigrants. Whether immigration laws are or are not enforced is a separate issue from the accuracy of the term.

Call it a smokescreen then.

Rick Reuben wrote:

steve wrote: Enforcement against such "crimes" is normally lax, and it ought to be.

Again, you are speaking as though you represent a majority of Americans. The polls say otherwise. You remember the uproar over the recent amnesty bills. What gives you the right to impose the moral choice made by you and your fellow minority on us all?

I'm imposing nothing. I just recognize the state of affairs as it is. Certain laws (those outlawing normal everyday things) aren't enforced much. I say they shouldn't be because any substantive enforcement would create an intrusive police state that I don't wish to suffer.

If you (and your majority of americans) want immigration police everywhere, corralling and harassing everyone in order to find a few more people to deport, you can probably have it.

I'd rather not.

SergioGeorgini wrote:

major malling marsupial wrote:

SergioGeorgini wrote:Best mexican food place is supported by illegal immigrants here. Just another scapegoat for a failing economy. I have many guatemalans in my neighborhood whom are very friendly and never protest about anything.

you didn't answer the question, but your improper use of 'whom' says it all.

God, I knew some douchebag would point that out. I was too lazy to edit it, but yeah guess my argument about them being a scapegoat is invalid.

It's true though. Most nations welcome immigrants in a healthy economy to fulfill positions, whether back breaking manual labor or the healthcare industry bringing over doctors. Exactly how do illegal immigrants fuck up your life?

my life is fine. i like my life fine. i like foreigners and foreign cars and foreign food. i just want some common sense, good english, and direct answers to poll questions:

No, i do not want my country to support illegal immigration. (this is not quite a civil rights sit-in, nerbly bear. Civil rights are the protections and privileges of personal power given to all citizens by law.)

Speaking of Immigrant labor, anyone read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle recently?

Yum, sausage...