Rick Reuben wrote:Nice bigotry. Jockeys are amazing athletes and don't deserve to be called freaks because they're small.

Where do they find these guys? I've never met anyone that fits the description of the typical jockey. They must be inbred like the horses they exploit to make a living. Perhaps they're raised on a farm somewhere. How's that for bigotry?

Bob: activist for short people. Fuck you. You're about as sincere as a priest with a little boy's dick in his hand.

Horses are amazing animals and don't deserve to be pushed beyond their capabilities because fat people who have wives that like to wear silly hats want to make more and more money.

Rick Reuben wrote:It is a total shame that horses are put down. It happened a lot at Arlington last season but it's pretty rare. It needs to be pointed out that the only reason these thoroughbreds see life in the first place is because they are brought into the world to be race horses. If there was no thoroughbred racing, there would just be fewer horses. A horse like Eight Belles would still be unmixed horse semen. Without racing, these bloodlines would just stop, because there is not enough demand for horses for other reasons. The vast majority of thoroughbreds live totally pampered lives and grow old and die naturally. Some get euthanized.

A euthanized race horse is a horse that would have never existed in the first place, if thoroughbred racing was ended.

This rationalization is ridiculous at best. If something is brought into this world for a purpose, then it's OK to proceed no matter what? If someone was bred as a slave, it's OK because at least they get to see life?

A euthanized slave is a slave that would never existed in the first place, if slavery was ended.

To be clear: I'm not equating these horses to slaves, but they seem to be exploited beyond their abilities nonetheless. Which, if true, is cruel.

Rick Reuben wrote:

nihil wrote:If someone was bred as a slave, it's OK because at least they get to see life?

Most animals are bred as slaves, dopey. Do you want to ban plow horses because sometimes horses collapse from the heat? Maybe we should ban dairy cows, too, genius? They're just slaves, right?

I wrote:
To be clear: I'm not equating these horses to slaves, but they seem to be exploited beyond their abilities nonetheless. Which, if true, is cruel.

Rick Reuben wrote:I hope to see you behind the counter of a Hardee's when the restaurant you mismanaged into the ground is shuttered.

Pretty classy Bob, as usual. Of course I expect you to be petty and insecure, but please enlighten me with your superior knowledge of owning and operating a business. I'm very interested.

Rick Reuben wrote:
Make sure you stop ordering all those slave produced eggs and steaks for your restaurant.

Make sure you tell your mom I said hello. What do you do for a living, Bob?
Your business doing well?

There is a real world out there, Bob. Believe it or not.

Rick Reuben wrote: It is a total shame that horses are put down. It happened a lot at Arlington last season but it's pretty rare. It needs to be pointed out that the only reason these thoroughbreds see life in the first place is because they are brought into the world to be race horses. If there was no thoroughbred racing, there would just be fewer horses. A horse like Eight Belles would still be unmixed horse semen. Without racing, these bloodlines would just stop, because there is not enough demand for horses for other reasons. The vast majority of thoroughbreds live totally pampered lives and grow old and die naturally. Some get euthanized.

A euthanized race horse is a horse that would have never existed in the first place, if thoroughbred racing was ended.

Actually, break downs at racetracks are disgustingly common. The thoroughbred racing industry produces a huge surplus of unwanted horses, races them as babies before their bones are fully developed, then destroys them. Every week that I attend the local horse auction people try to dump their slow, lame, or baby thoroughbreds. Every time I peek into the pen of horses to be shipped to slaughter, there will doubtlessly be thoroughbreds.
They're dirt cheap, a dime a dozen, and there's almost no homes for them.
Now that the U.S. banned slaughter within our borders, they get to be hauled for hours in crappy, cramped trailers to Mexico or Canada before suffering the same fate.

Yes, the horses would never have been born in the first place, and that's better off because there are SO many goddamn horses and no place for them.

Racehorses that are being raced are kept in high-class facilities where they are fed the best feeds, made super shiny, and... stare at their stall walls for 23 hours a day when they aren't being trained/exercised. I'd say any horse out in a field running and grazing all day is happier. They're not being abused there, but there's a good chance they'll end up someplace shitty if they have a career mishap anyway.

I sound really preachy, but I've been working with horses for so long; I have mouthfuls to say. crap crap crap

Rick Reuben wrote:

ruffian wrote:I sound really preachy, but I've been working with horses for so long

Why have you worked so long in this field if you have so many moral complaints about it?

Doesn't add up.

I disagree with this. It's possible to love horses and work with them and have issues with the racing biz. I just read, for example, Can I Keep My Jersey?, a great basketball memoir by Paul Shirley, this journeyman ball player who loves the game of basketball, but has tons of issues with the average basketball star, the business side of the sport, etc. But he keeps at it because he loves basketball. To say "if you have moral complaints about a field, don't work in it" is a major over-simplification and too black and white. Everyone has their limits as to what issues they can tolerate in their chosen field.

Rick Reuben wrote:

DrAwkward wrote:I disagree with this. It's possible to love horses and work with them and have issues with the racing biz.

I'm sure every trainer and jockey and groomer, etc. has issues with the racing industry, too. But Ruffian has *zero* good things to say about it. Does the basketball player you name have *zero* good things to say about making his living playing basketball?

You may want to note that Ruffian did not at any point say that he's specifically in the horse racing industry.

Rick Reuben wrote:

DrAwkward wrote:You may want to note that Ruffian did not at any point say that he's specifically in the horse racing industry.

Sure he did. If he's at horse auctions then he's in the industry. Horse auctions are where race horse are bought and sold.

ruffian wrote:Every week that I attend the local horse auction people try to dump their slow, lame, or baby thoroughbreds.

Of course, he could be there as a PETA protestor, which, based on this being his first post and based on his post reading like a PETA newsletter, probably has a likelihood of about 98%.

See? So you don't know and were jumping to conclusions about what he does based on the incomplete details he presented. Just sayin'.

Rick Reuben wrote:

dr awkward wrote:To say "if you have moral complaints about a field, don't work in it" is a major over-simplification and too black and white.

I think it's funny that this sentiment appears on this particular forum. Isn't that what people are always giving Albini grief for? Taking money to do records that comes from the corporations that he condemns?

"People," maybe, but not me.

Rick Reuben wrote:

DrAwkward wrote:See? So you don't know and were jumping to conclusions about what he does based on the incomplete details he presented. Just sayin'.

Well, you're wrong. Are you saying that it is wrong to assume that a person who claims to have worked with horses 'for so long' and attends auctions 'weekly' is in the industry he is damning? What are you smoking? Ruffian is clearly implying that he is inside the industry.

Admittedly i'm working from a point of ignorance here as i'm not sure what other aspects of working with horses there are other than just the racing industry. My only point was that it could be that Ruffian works with horses and finds himself bumping up against the racing biz, but doesn't work in the racing biz. I don't see that as an outlandish concept, but maybe i'm talking out my ass. Feel free to set me straight, i guess. Ruffian! Say something!

Do you have any criticisms of horse racing yourself? Do you want it outlawed? Do you feel like oversight of breeders is inadequate? Speak up.

I don't know enough about it because i've never cared enough about horses in general. I do know that the whole Eight Belles story this weekend made me profoundly sad and angry. The idea of a life where all you know is run run run run and then suddenly your existence is pain and confusion and more pain and then finally nothing at all...ugh. I guess i just know that i'd hate to be a horse, even a pampered one born and raised to win money for my fat owner.

When you said "had it not been for horse racing, she wouldn't have been born at all," all that made me think was "well, maybe it had been better had she not been born in the first place?" I dunno, it speaks to a larger existential question about quanity vs. quality of life that i debate with myself across all sorts of issues.

Rick Reuben wrote:

DrAwkward wrote:"People," maybe, but not me.

Do you think it is 'morally acceptable' to work for a defense contractor if you're a pacifist? Or to work for a bank if you condemn usury?

People do what they do to get through the goddamn day sometimes. Is it ideal? Of course not. But i'm not gonna judge what someone does for a living if i don't know their goddamn life story.

These debates are fun and everything, but at the end of the day, sometimes bills are bills and a job is a job. Is that person working that job temporarily until they can get themselves to a better, less morally gray career path? Are they trying to make their little corner of the business better somehow? Are they completely amoral and lazy and just don't think about these things? Everyone's different.