A local Milwaukee studio guy posted about a guy in Germany making clones. There's a waitlist but I figured I'd share the contact if any of you are interested and looking?
Frans Stummer info@frans-stummer.de
Re: Can we pressure Beyerdynamic to reissue the M380?
32if that's the same Frans that's around in some other forums, he got some backstock of the Beyerdynamic mic elements. Last I heard he was looking for bodies. Maybe he's got that sorted out now.penningtron wrote: A local Milwaukee studio guy posted about a guy in Germany making clones. There's a waitlist but I figured I'd share the contact if any of you are interested and looking?
Frans Stummer info@frans-stummer.de
Re: Can we pressure Beyerdynamic to reissue the M380?
33I bought two of those from Frans a while back.
They do not sound like my M380, but they sound pretty good. They definitely have the low end; it's very clean and extends way down there.
My M380, which is a TG model, has a nice bump of mid-range - think the "growl" of bass strings.
Frans' clone doesn't have that, it's smoother in the mid-range.
I haven't yet tried in on kick drum, the other of the M380's strength. When I do I'll report back.
They do not sound like my M380, but they sound pretty good. They definitely have the low end; it's very clean and extends way down there.
My M380, which is a TG model, has a nice bump of mid-range - think the "growl" of bass strings.
Frans' clone doesn't have that, it's smoother in the mid-range.
I haven't yet tried in on kick drum, the other of the M380's strength. When I do I'll report back.
Re: Can we pressure Beyerdynamic to reissue the M380?
34We properly pleaded and badgered our contacts at Beyerdynamic about what it would take to produce a reissue. I went so far as asking them how much would be enough if there was a guaranteed preorder. They just were not interested in "tooling up" for a reissue. I don't understand why it would be so much more difficult for them to do today. My guess is they've moved on completely from the older materials, can't source them at the volume they need.
Either way, they didn't want to entertain the idea.
Either way, they didn't want to entertain the idea.
Re: Can we pressure Beyerdynamic to reissue the M380?
35So to my understanding the mic is just a 770/990 headphone driver mounted into a mic body. Is there any specific other circuitry that is involved? Magic transformer... filter circuit etc? Seems like you cold roll out a bunch of these pretty easy DIY style with some cheap doner bodies and a little handy work. I got a 3d printer.Greg wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 2:54 pm We properly pleaded and badgered our contacts at Beyerdynamic about what it would take to produce a reissue. I went so far as asking them how much would be enough if there was a guaranteed preorder. They just were not interested in "tooling up" for a reissue. I don't understand why it would be so much more difficult for them to do today. My guess is they've moved on completely from the older materials, can't source them at the volume they need.
Either way, they didn't want to entertain the idea.
Re: Can we pressure Beyerdynamic to reissue the M380?
36I posted a thread here way back about my diy m380 project. Will reiterate some of the conversation hereKniferide wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 3:29 pm So to my understanding the mic is just a 770/990 headphone driver mounted into a mic body. Is there any specific other circuitry that is involved? Magic transformer... filter circuit etc? Seems like you cold roll out a bunch of these pretty easy DIY style with some cheap doner bodies and a little handy work. I got a 3d printer.
The real m380 had a humbucking coil, but I've never found any further detail on that, other than someone who posted in the old form saying they omitted it when replacing a dead element with a headphones driver, and that it made no difference in their experience.
But no, nothing magic. Ignoring the humbucking coil, you just solder wires from the headphone driver tabs directly to the xlr. It's stupid simple.
As for bodies, I'd say experiment with the existing headphone cans. The 990 are open back so might be fine as is. The 3d printing option has potential. I sent a tg-x50 body to a friend to 3d model, but he's been to busy being a dumb scientist to get it finished in a timely manner. I'll gladly share that model if it ever happens.
Re: Can we pressure Beyerdynamic to reissue the M380?
37I mean, I've just tossed a pair of 7506's in a kick and plugged them into a DI... not bad result.thecr4ne wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:20 pmI posted a thread here way back about my diy m380 project. Will reiterate some of the conversation hereKniferide wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 3:29 pm So to my understanding the mic is just a 770/990 headphone driver mounted into a mic body. Is there any specific other circuitry that is involved? Magic transformer... filter circuit etc? Seems like you cold roll out a bunch of these pretty easy DIY style with some cheap doner bodies and a little handy work. I got a 3d printer.
The real m380 had a humbucking coil, but I've never found any further detail on that, other than someone who posted in the old form saying they omitted it when replacing a dead element with a headphones driver, and that it made no difference in their experience.
But no, nothing magic. Ignoring the humbucking coil, you just solder wires from the headphone driver tabs directly to the xlr. It's stupid simple.
As for bodies, I'd say experiment with the existing headphone cans. The 990 are open back so might be fine as is. The 3d printing option has potential. I sent a tg-x50 body to a friend to 3d model, but he's been to busy being a dumb scientist to get it finished in a timely manner. I'll gladly share that model if it ever happens.
Re: Can we pressure Beyerdynamic to reissue the M380?
38Hi, i am the guy mentioned in post # 31, who sold two M380 clones to danielruder (post # 33).
The whole thing started nearly ten years ago when Greg Norman wrote me a message on the old electrical forum for some spare parts, which i could supply. After having given up on the topic of old headphone drivers a few years later (more on that further down) i came by a big box of unused Beyer capsules with the right specs by luck (and some detective work) in a country in eastern europe.
At a visit to their production facilities in Germany i talked to the head of production about the M380 and he explained why they would not reissue it but they were okay with me doing a run of clone mics to make somebody in Chicago happy. Sadly they had none of the original bodies left so i had to find another body that would fit and sound okay with the capsule. In november i sent one to Chicago and Mr. Albini did like it a lot - and also told me by now they had my spare parts in use.
The capsules in the M380 are very identical to the headphone capsules in late80s-mid90s headphones of the DT series. The difference is they carry a humbucking coil and have a solder terminal on the back instead two solder lugs on the side (=headphones). The membrane of these capsules is coated to keep it elastic over a long time, but if it catches humidity too much it gets stiff over time - and sounds different then. This coating is also sticky and that will make it collect every piece of dust, pieces of hair and the magnet is very strong and that will also pull in magnetic dust and stuff that all sticks to the membrane. Especially small pieces of hair will lead to buzzing on the membrane, which isn't that obvious at first on kickdrum, but on certain notes of bass.
After some years of sourcing capsules from headphones i gave up because so many of them did not sound good anymore. Mostly from dirt on the membrane and the deteriorating membrane coating. I also regularly get old M380s for repair which look fine but do not sound M380-ish anymore, mostly from a stiffened membrane - they have less sub, more prominent midrange (150-300) and all have in common that their membrane isn't sticky anymore (not elastic enough). I also got sent a few Frankenstein mics with either M380 bodies (or its variants) or other bodies which fit the capsule (not too many come to mind, the carcass of a AKG D12 or D20 and some italian Davoil clones of these, for example) where somebody had put their hope in fitting a headphone capsule. I have not come across a usuable headphone capsule for some time - if you look for these, try to find headphones that haven't been in use much, and hifi people still sell them for inflated prices for something that is a bit beyond its pull date, look for Revox 3100 (which obviously was built by Beyer) and - this is a secret i have not been telling anybody - look for Beyer IRS690 headphones which had the right capsule and were expensive for the time, being wireless with an infrared transmitter and rechargeable batteries. Luckily for us, the batteries in there were prone to failure after a too short time and so most of these headphones were laid aside in their box and were preserved in the back of a closet, kind of undead. BUT time is against us, als even these capsules run not too far from the end of their lifespan by now. As these headphones were really expensive when new, people often kept them in original packaging after failure - and being so expensive they were unpopular (you never heard of them, did you?) which makes them mostly dirt cheap IF you can find them. With the scripted search enginges i have running in the background i have detected every single one for sale, no matter where, in 24 hours - there aren't too many for sale in a typical year, sorry folks.
So after this detour, back to Chicago: Steve liked the clone a lot on bass, but he wasn't too happy about it on kickdrum, for which he used the M380 and the clone directly into the (line input) 1176. (Another short detour: on loud sources /kick/ the M380/clone gives a ton of level while it feels most happy into an input impedance around 1000 ohms. This combination isn't found in most modern preamps which either can't take that much level .. or only with the pad switched in.. which changes the input impedances in many preamps, wandering too far from the impedance a M380 is happy with and which gives it's typical sound) So Steve asked me if i can do something about that too tiny impedance window and the resulting wrong low mid bump when the ideal impedance range is not met.
This led to much hair tearing, swearing and wanting to throw the towel for hundreds of measurements and tests and different ideas how to solve it. When i found the solution i was well into fuckthatwholethingiquitandkillmyself-territory, but the magic mic fairy was on my side or something. I called the procedure the "Albini mod" (zero points for originality) and sent another mic to Chicago. Which Steve had for a few weeks, liked, and then this very very sad thing happened.
I don't want to look like i am riding the coattails of all this so i keep a low profile, okay?
As for danielruders mics: i usually sort out the capsules that have too much mid growl, as it is something that increases in in a capsule after long years of use. It can be fine, but rarely on most kickdrums. I got my reference M380 from way back and the clones that go out are picked to be like it. On request i could hand out a clone with more mids .. or (some actually have asked me for this) a clone with less treble. (and nobody could accuse a M380 of having much treble to start with) If Daniel wants to, he could send me one of his mics and get a "more low mid growl 150-250ish" for free - after all, this is all about having a mic that makes you happy. Or try a preamp with a higher input impedance.
There is no shop, no website and i am not a salesman. Also, i am not an electrical engineer or in any other ways too knowledgeable in electronics or engineering, which leaves open the possibility of me getting things wrong or using unclear wording and concepts with technical things. I am a cartoonist.
The mod makes the clone have a wider impedance window and some 8-9 dBs less level, so it can be used with most preamps (and their pads) between inputs of 300-2400 ohms without straying too much. Higher impedances than 2400 and the sub & bass frequencies begin to fall away - so no need to try it into a 10kohms line input. Also the clone goes down to 10 hz if your source has it, just like M380s used to go when they were less worn. The capsules i have spent their hibernation tightly wrapped in foil and didn't catch any humidity, it seems.
Long post. Sorry.
The whole thing started nearly ten years ago when Greg Norman wrote me a message on the old electrical forum for some spare parts, which i could supply. After having given up on the topic of old headphone drivers a few years later (more on that further down) i came by a big box of unused Beyer capsules with the right specs by luck (and some detective work) in a country in eastern europe.
At a visit to their production facilities in Germany i talked to the head of production about the M380 and he explained why they would not reissue it but they were okay with me doing a run of clone mics to make somebody in Chicago happy. Sadly they had none of the original bodies left so i had to find another body that would fit and sound okay with the capsule. In november i sent one to Chicago and Mr. Albini did like it a lot - and also told me by now they had my spare parts in use.
The capsules in the M380 are very identical to the headphone capsules in late80s-mid90s headphones of the DT series. The difference is they carry a humbucking coil and have a solder terminal on the back instead two solder lugs on the side (=headphones). The membrane of these capsules is coated to keep it elastic over a long time, but if it catches humidity too much it gets stiff over time - and sounds different then. This coating is also sticky and that will make it collect every piece of dust, pieces of hair and the magnet is very strong and that will also pull in magnetic dust and stuff that all sticks to the membrane. Especially small pieces of hair will lead to buzzing on the membrane, which isn't that obvious at first on kickdrum, but on certain notes of bass.
After some years of sourcing capsules from headphones i gave up because so many of them did not sound good anymore. Mostly from dirt on the membrane and the deteriorating membrane coating. I also regularly get old M380s for repair which look fine but do not sound M380-ish anymore, mostly from a stiffened membrane - they have less sub, more prominent midrange (150-300) and all have in common that their membrane isn't sticky anymore (not elastic enough). I also got sent a few Frankenstein mics with either M380 bodies (or its variants) or other bodies which fit the capsule (not too many come to mind, the carcass of a AKG D12 or D20 and some italian Davoil clones of these, for example) where somebody had put their hope in fitting a headphone capsule. I have not come across a usuable headphone capsule for some time - if you look for these, try to find headphones that haven't been in use much, and hifi people still sell them for inflated prices for something that is a bit beyond its pull date, look for Revox 3100 (which obviously was built by Beyer) and - this is a secret i have not been telling anybody - look for Beyer IRS690 headphones which had the right capsule and were expensive for the time, being wireless with an infrared transmitter and rechargeable batteries. Luckily for us, the batteries in there were prone to failure after a too short time and so most of these headphones were laid aside in their box and were preserved in the back of a closet, kind of undead. BUT time is against us, als even these capsules run not too far from the end of their lifespan by now. As these headphones were really expensive when new, people often kept them in original packaging after failure - and being so expensive they were unpopular (you never heard of them, did you?) which makes them mostly dirt cheap IF you can find them. With the scripted search enginges i have running in the background i have detected every single one for sale, no matter where, in 24 hours - there aren't too many for sale in a typical year, sorry folks.
So after this detour, back to Chicago: Steve liked the clone a lot on bass, but he wasn't too happy about it on kickdrum, for which he used the M380 and the clone directly into the (line input) 1176. (Another short detour: on loud sources /kick/ the M380/clone gives a ton of level while it feels most happy into an input impedance around 1000 ohms. This combination isn't found in most modern preamps which either can't take that much level .. or only with the pad switched in.. which changes the input impedances in many preamps, wandering too far from the impedance a M380 is happy with and which gives it's typical sound) So Steve asked me if i can do something about that too tiny impedance window and the resulting wrong low mid bump when the ideal impedance range is not met.
This led to much hair tearing, swearing and wanting to throw the towel for hundreds of measurements and tests and different ideas how to solve it. When i found the solution i was well into fuckthatwholethingiquitandkillmyself-territory, but the magic mic fairy was on my side or something. I called the procedure the "Albini mod" (zero points for originality) and sent another mic to Chicago. Which Steve had for a few weeks, liked, and then this very very sad thing happened.
I don't want to look like i am riding the coattails of all this so i keep a low profile, okay?
As for danielruders mics: i usually sort out the capsules that have too much mid growl, as it is something that increases in in a capsule after long years of use. It can be fine, but rarely on most kickdrums. I got my reference M380 from way back and the clones that go out are picked to be like it. On request i could hand out a clone with more mids .. or (some actually have asked me for this) a clone with less treble. (and nobody could accuse a M380 of having much treble to start with) If Daniel wants to, he could send me one of his mics and get a "more low mid growl 150-250ish" for free - after all, this is all about having a mic that makes you happy. Or try a preamp with a higher input impedance.
There is no shop, no website and i am not a salesman. Also, i am not an electrical engineer or in any other ways too knowledgeable in electronics or engineering, which leaves open the possibility of me getting things wrong or using unclear wording and concepts with technical things. I am a cartoonist.
The mod makes the clone have a wider impedance window and some 8-9 dBs less level, so it can be used with most preamps (and their pads) between inputs of 300-2400 ohms without straying too much. Higher impedances than 2400 and the sub & bass frequencies begin to fall away - so no need to try it into a 10kohms line input. Also the clone goes down to 10 hz if your source has it, just like M380s used to go when they were less worn. The capsules i have spent their hibernation tightly wrapped in foil and didn't catch any humidity, it seems.
Long post. Sorry.
Re: Can we pressure Beyerdynamic to reissue the M380?
39Nice. Welcome! I saw Shane from Howl St. post about your mics the other day.
Re: Can we pressure Beyerdynamic to reissue the M380?
40Just wanted to say that while I'm not at all in the market for an M380 or a clone of it, I totally geeked out over your post. Great stuff!FransFromBavaria wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 1:10 pm Hi, i am the guy mentioned in post # 31, who sold two M380 clones to danielruder (post # 33).
jason (he/him/his) from volo (illinois)