Hex wrote:

OrthodoxEaster wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 12:00 pm All I can say is, the "logic" is dangerously close to something like Jan. 6. Sure, those people were brainwashed dipshits. And I think they suck. But that's also irrelevant: They believed in what they were doing and thought they were solving an "injustice" w/violence.

That's a shitty precedent that I want no part of, regardless of the ideology behind it. I don't want to live in a society where this stuff becomes any more "normal" than it already is. That's all I'm sayin'.

That “logic” is nowhere near close. On one hand, you have people with demonstrably false beliefs wanting to take control of a government to impose a fascist regime. On the other, you have people who are literally resisting the violence imposed on them because their lives depend on it. The effects and outcomes of both are incredibly different. To equate them because of any similarity in methods is ridiculous. What do you think of the Haitian Revolution, where slaves overthrew and killed their masters? Would you condemn them and compare them to Jan 6 because they both “believed in what they were doing and thought they were solving an "injustice" w/violence.”

I’m begging all of you to consider the same logic and arguments you are spouting here with other examples in history before saying this shit.

The terrifying thing is that many of those Jan. 6 goons will gladly use the same logic on you. Hell, they already do. But "see!?" they'd crow as an excuse for some act of violence. And so, it escalates.

They're beyond wrong, of course. But that would be their excuse. And so, you play right into the trap by thinking like they do.

And we're not talking about colonial Haiti. We're talking about now. The slavery argument is pretty off the mark b/c such people depended on their "masters" for every facet of their lives. And had no freedom of movement. Which is a lot more extreme than being saddled w/crippling healthcare debt, to which this bastard was but one tangential tentacle of many, many, many, many. And Haitians set up a (granted, pretty messy) state as a viable alternative; their plan was not just killing some dude to make a vague point. Killing one CEO—or even all the CEOs—is probably not a step towards national healthcare. B/c there will just be... more CEOs. Blue Cross has already exploited it for PR purposes (you can keep your anesthesia, peons; even though our decision likely predated this event, aren't we fucking thoughtful?). And insurance companies are already militarizing their security for corporate fuckos. Again, hit the insurance industry in the purse instead. Just don't fucking pay them.

I don't find it the least bit unreasonable to not want to live in a 2024 society where mob rule and/or vigilante justice are normal. It will unleash all manner of sloppiness, stupidity, and more violence. The problem is when everyone starts thinking shit is justifiable b/c they're "right." Whether that violence is coming from an ethical standpoint I happen to personally agree w/or not is quite irrelevant.

Hex wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 12:44 pm I have never claimed anywhere that I could never see myself committing something like that, and I fail to see the logic where you get “someone encouraging someone else to do something they wouldn’t themselves is wrong” from.

Be real. Are you willing and able to kill an unsuspecting person?

As for the logic, you don't need Nietzsche and Sartre to parse this out (although I find them helpful here). It's as raw as "you won't hunt for your meat" or "you talk a lot of shit but you don't throw down". We are all accustomed to these critical questions about conviction and operating from a place of authenticity.

The executioner has to clean the shit off of his axe. What kind of dreams do you think the guy who works the gallows has? Would you do his job? Are you comfortable sitting back and sending him assignments? There is a large cross section of society that is quite comfortable doing so, but we wouldn't care for those folks.

Hex wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 12:44 pm You declaring something doesn’t make it true,

Right. Likewise. That's kind of why these discussions exist.

Hex wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 12:44 pm and I already stated elsewhere I don’t give a shit about morality on its own terms—only when in service of actual, felt effects.

But you have to understand that is in itself a moral argument. You have come to the ethics debate with a rough kind of utilitarian justification for murder. There's a well made road map for it made by people smarter than either of us, I just don't particularly buy it. I mainly don't think it's fair to condemn people sitting around the crap/not crap thread for their take when you're sitting indoors gabbing about it with the rest of us.

OrthodoxEaster wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 1:29 pm Blue Cross has already exploited it for PR purposes (you can keep your anesthesia, peons; even though our decision likely predated this event, aren't we fucking thoughtful?)

I imagine that's how they hoped it would look but again, optics trump all. Just looks like they've shit themselves.

Hex wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2024 4:56 pm

hbiden@onlyfans.com wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2024 4:24 pm

ChudFusk wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2024 4:00 pm If I didn’t have a good life, I would have done something like this a long time ago. I’m glad I didn’t do it but I’m grateful that someone did and I hope we see more actions like this, assuming it was done for a good reason.

ok you just made a good case for living a good life. bad lives produces worse choices.
death is not the answer.

It seems pretty clear to me from the context of saying he’s grateful someone else did it, that he’s glad he himself didn’t do it because it would have negatively affected his life, not because it was inherently a “bad” choice.

that's how i understood it as well. gleeful justification of murder. not just celebrating it, but wishing you could do it yourself. it took less than an hour for you and him to prove my point.

after this

Hex wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2024 6:24 pm I don’t give a shit about “morality”.

it was only a matter of time before this

Hex wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 2:44 pm I fucking hate you and I’m done wasting my breath here

i hope you find healing/love.

Hex wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 2:38 pm I am fucking out there on the ground helping my community, one that is currently being targeted by genocide, survive. I am out there getting people in several states the medication they need. I have literally saved people’s fucking lives through decisive action. I’m doing the care work for victims of these horrible systems.

Which is awesome. Seriously. No one can talk shit about that. I will happily speak up against anyone who would doubt the value of that. You are doing a great thing.

It does not however make you a moral authority on murder.

I'm not going to open my mind to just blasting dudes because an EMT says so, or a school psychologist, or a disability advocate, or a public defender. Someone's virtue or struggle doesn't give them higher standing to dictate who gets to live. It doesn't work like that.

Haiti has come up twice, I could write 1,000 more words about Haiti on here than anyone wants to read. Fortunately I'm on my phone, so I'll leave it at this. Read about what happened in Haiti. It will show you how quickly the righteous uprising against an oppressor can turn; just how dark the sense of entitlement on people's lives can get.

Hex wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 3:48 pm I CARE MORE ABOUT ACTUAL FELT CONSEQUENCES

united healthcare will go on living. mrs. thompson will get a hefty life insurance settlement. the only other guy feeling consequences here will be the killer.
is that the guy you want to be?

“I don’t think the people of the slave states will ever consider the subject of slavery in its true light till some other argument is resorted to other than moral persuasion."

I think John Brown did a correct thing and I think the shooter did as well. Certainly more in line with JB than J6.

Hex has a point in that they have to fight for their existence. You're doing great Hex. No chaser to that statement. No buts.

Being morally superior and being correct aren't always equivalent.

Hex wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 3:48 pm ARE YOU EVEN FUCKING COMPREHENDING WHAT I’M FUCKING TYPING??? DID YOU READ WHERE I DIDNT CARE ABOUT MORALITY *BECAUSE* I CARE MORE ABOUT ACTUAL FELT CONSEQUENCES???

YOU SAY I PROVED YOUR POINT BUT HOW??? YOUR “POINT” WAS “DEATH IS NOT THE ANSWER.” I HAVE MAINTAINED CONSISTENTLY THAT ACTUALLY, I THINK IT IS IN SOME CASES, LIKE THE VERY FUCKING ONE THIS TOPIC IS ABOUT. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU ON ABOUT???

“I hope you find healing/love”

GEE, THANKS FOR TELLING ME WHAT EVERY FUCKING RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALIST SAYS WHEN THEY SEE I’M TRANS.

GO FUCK YOURSELF, YOU PIECE OF SHIT

Don't pay any attention to hbiden.com, he's a fucking troll with constant bad faith arguments. You are 100% right about everything you've said in this thread.

Morality is just a form of self-congratulatory masturbation when we allow the ruling class to live by a different set of rules. Morals are just means by which religious institutions control the masses. What we're talking about is ethics, and I believe it is ethical to cut the cancer out of the body. Now Orthodoxeaster will jump in and say "but that's what the bad guys think too!" But guess what homie, they're wrong. The fact that Christofascist White nationalists think it's ok to kill gay people and minorities, and I think it's ok to kill people who do such things, does not make me in any way equal to them other than in our mutual willingness to take life. But it's the reason, not the action, that matters. Orthodoxeaster's argument is essentially "Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore all vegetarians are Nazis." Come on bro

andyman wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 4:40 pm I'm sure during the French Revolution there were people lamenting the use of violence.

Happy Pearl Harbor Day!

I didn't even think about the psychology of or the emotional impact this might have on the killer, quite frankly. Oof. Heavy shit. Misery breeding misery.

I would probably want to be him even less than I'd want to be the dead insurance exec right now. Brian UnitedHealthcare got off easy and probably didn't even know what hit him.

This reminds me—albeit very tangentially—of a conversation I had w/a recent immigrant from mainland China. He was mad b/c junkies and dealers fuck w/ and steal from his restaurant, get out of jail that afternoon, then just do it again the next day. Seemed to think the US was idiotic for not having a death sentence for repeat drug offenses, which they supposedly do in China. Says it's a very effective deterrent.

I just shook my head and told him that Americans' relationship w/"laws" is very different, and that there are worse things to worry about than drug dealers. Never mind how completely barbaric this would be. He looked at me like he thought I was crazy.

His comeback was that the guys who execute drug offenders (and others in China) use this wonderful system in which multiple people fire into a room, unable to see the executed or one another. So nobody knows who killed the offender, therefore, the executioners feel no remorse and sleep well at night. Yay!

I shook my head once more and continued to eat my Chongqing laziji...