I find that most homophobic people I know are just mildy homophobic, that's why I don't make a big deal out of it with my friends. As I've said-I think it's sad, but I don't judge them for having their way, because I've got mine. However, if their homophobia was more extreme, like for instance they confronted homosexuals and gave them abuse, verbal or physical I would definitly take it more seriously. Perhaps I'm an awful person.

Racism can also be milder but in general I tend to find people with racist views would happily act on them given the chance.

This is all based off personal experience.

Argh! This thread is frustrating!

Fuck homophobia. Fuck racism.

Above all, fuck the idea that one is necessarily worse than the other.

There is a spectrum of racism, from casual, lazy attitudes thought by their holder to be perfectly reasonable at one end, to lynchings at the other.

Exactly the same can be said for homophobia.

Whether an example of homophobia is worse than an example of racism depends on where said examples are on aforementioned spectrum. Mild racism is better than rampant homophobia, and vice versa.

Of course, homphobia or racism however mild, remains bad.

The above is so ridiculously simple, but loads of people on this thread seem to be going off in crazy tangents and wandering away from the logic of ethics.

With regards to an artist being a homophobe or racist, well: fuck them - as a person. Whether you want to say fuck them as an artist is really your choice. It depends on how much of a product of their racism/homophobia their art is, perhaps, or how much value you place on the artist's personality and values in your interpretation of their art.

Personally, I say "go fuck yourself" to Skrewdriver, and fuck this "they've got good riffs" bullshit too. But I don't say "go fuck yourself" to Hergé, because he acknowledged flaws in his ideas about race (which were pretty much the norm at the time, moreover) and revised them. Judge each case individually. Not so hard, is it?

BClark wrote:hey, for the record, i'm not homophobic. i read william burroughs.

..ahahah..do you lisen to Queen to...or Turbonegro..!??

sphincter wrote:

tmidgett wrote:

sphincter wrote:

tmidgett wrote:If someone is great or at least very distinctive, I don't care about any of this stuff.

If someone is less than great, he has to be better than otherwise, proportional to how offensive he is as a person. I'm less likely to enjoy someone's art if he is a known shitbag, but it's hardly impossible.

I don't think one's opinions about anything have to mean anything when it comes to one's art. They can be pretty much separate, esp when the art is very good.

I think the ridiculous thing, as noted, is to distinguish between homophobia and racism. It tells you something about yourself if you make this distinction.

That you feel that racism is worse than homophobia. Can others not hold that opinion without you judging them? Is your way of thinking the right way and everyone else is wrong? Would you allow others to hold opinions different to your without holding it against them, perhaps understanding that we all have different values, priorities and codes?

Boy, I hate the 'everything's relative' argument. People have been making it since the invention of the sophomore year.

If someone thinks racism is worse than homophobia, they are wrong.

The two are equally bad.

You have to draw the fucking line somewhere.

Nah. Well done for missing the point though.

How so?

You think being 'mildly homophobic' is less bad than being 'mildly racist.'

I think you're wrong.

What'd I miss?

Again, re music, it can in fact not matter sometimes. Art can transcend its own offensiveness. I tend to pull out Ice Cube's _Death Certificate_ as an example in discussions like this.

simmo wrote:Argh! This thread is frustrating!

Fuck homophobia. Fuck racism.

Above all, fuck the idea that one is necessarily worse than the other.

There is a spectrum of racism, from casual, lazy attitudes thought by their holder to be perfectly reasonable at one end, to lynchings at the other.

Exactly the same can be said for homophobia.

Whether an example of homophobia is worse than an example of racism depends on where said examples are on aforementioned spectrum. Mild racism is better than rampant homophobia, and vice versa.

Of course, homphobia or racism however mild, remains bad.

The above is so ridiculously simple, but loads of people on this thread seem to be going off in crazy tangents and wandering away from the logic of ethics.

With regards to an artist being a homophobe or racist, well: fuck them - as a person. Whether you want to say fuck them as an artist is really your choice. It depends on how much of a product of their racism/homophobia their art is, perhaps, or how much value you place on the artist's personality and values in your interpretation of their art.

Personally, I say "go fuck yourself" to Skrewdriver, and fuck this "they've got good riffs" bullshit too. But I don't say "go fuck yourself" to Hergé, because he acknowledged flaws in his ideas about race (which were pretty much the norm at the time, moreover) and revised them. Judge each case individually. Not so hard, is it?

Use your wording from the other end of the argument. That's my point, all this bullshit is actually all about forcing your views upon others and 'fucking' anyone for thinking differently.

tmidgett wrote:

sphincter wrote:

tmidgett wrote:

sphincter wrote:

tmidgett wrote:If someone is great or at least very distinctive, I don't care about any of this stuff.

If someone is less than great, he has to be better than otherwise, proportional to how offensive he is as a person. I'm less likely to enjoy someone's art if he is a known shitbag, but it's hardly impossible.

I don't think one's opinions about anything have to mean anything when it comes to one's art. They can be pretty much separate, esp when the art is very good.

I think the ridiculous thing, as noted, is to distinguish between homophobia and racism. It tells you something about yourself if you make this distinction.

That you feel that racism is worse than homophobia. Can others not hold that opinion without you judging them? Is your way of thinking the right way and everyone else is wrong? Would you allow others to hold opinions different to your without holding it against them, perhaps understanding that we all have different values, priorities and codes?

Boy, I hate the 'everything's relative' argument. People have been making it since the invention of the sophomore year.

If someone thinks racism is worse than homophobia, they are wrong.

The two are equally bad.

You have to draw the fucking line somewhere.

Nah. Well done for missing the point though.

How so?

You think being 'mildly homophobic' is less bad than being 'mildly racist.'

I think you're wrong.

What'd I miss?

Again, re music, it can in fact not matter sometimes. Art can transcend its own offensiveness. I tend to pull out Ice Cube's _Death Certificate_ as an example in discussions like this.

No, I think Homophobia and Racism can both kiss my colon whilst I'm having a horrific poo, all liquid and smelly. I just don't think I'm God like you hippies.

sphincter wrote:I just don't think I'm God like you hippies.

Sphincter, you spend a large proportion of your time here insulting most of us on the board and making it clear that you consider most of us hippies, hipsters, holier-than-thou snobs, or whatever weird sub-group you feel like assigning to us.

If we are fueling this complex of yours, then why do you visit? I'm sure that there is a leafy corner of the internet more suited to your temperament. Most of us seem to get on fine. Your insistence on being a dick is grating.

sphincter wrote:That's my point, all this bullshit is actually all about forcing your views upon others and 'fucking' anyone for thinking differently.

Nobody's forcing anything on anybody.

I think less of people who make a distinction between racism and homophobia because they don't see them as different iterations of the same prejudice. I do, and I think less of people who don't. That's all.

I think even less of actual racists or homophobes, but that's not the question before us.

Eating Noddemixs' statements about blacks being more homophobic than whites is a fairly accurate statement, but it has nothing at all to do with rap music. The anti-gay sentiment in rap music is a manifestation of the urban black communities fear, ignorance, and unsubstantiated views on homosexuality, mainly the grossly inaccurate belief that being gay makes you less of a man; black men should be strong pillars of black-society and not swishy, effeminate weaklings who can do nothing to further the community. Once you take into consideration the biblical view on homosexuality then you have a huge proportion of black Americans denouncing the black LGBT community. A high percentage of young, black men are in jail, unemployed, and/or likely to die at a very early age. The statistics are unpleasant and all too real. Blacks see being gay as another nail in the coffin, so to speak. We're not being men and taking care of business. I find this difficult to put into words, but it's something that you can't be aware of if you are not mired in its complexities. It's a black thing; a sad, reprehensible, unfortunate black thing.

H-GM wrote:Blacks see being gay as another nail in the coffin, so to speak.

There's a line at the beginning of Paris Is Burning, something about having two strikes for being a black man, and being a queen is the third strike. Seeing that group of men operating in basically a cabal, I think that if the human tendency for infighting were surmounted, that they could be an army against oppression.