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I have a friend who does construction but doesn't know anything about computers. The bad part is that he really enjoys surfing the internet, email, looking at porn, etc.

I've cleaned 3 viruses from his emachines 233 mhz pc (read: wiping the hard drive and starting over) in the past year or so. (The latest being a virus that went "out of style" in about 1999. I really don't know how he got that one).

What's really sad is that there really isn't any hope for him. Trust me. I've tried everything and he still manages to get so much spyware and/or viruses (viri?) that I've finally had it. (Of course, he won't pay for the anti-virus/spyware software and just uses the freeware).

Last weekend I told him that either he buys a mac or I'm finished fixing his shit. Right now, on my desk is his brand new 1.67 ghz Mac Mini which I hope will give him (well me, actually) less trouble. So far so good. I like it, anway.

For what it's worth, he's helping me remodel my house for the computer work. I really hope that the virus-people continue to lay low on the Mac side of things for a while though.

Scott, you are wrong.

I knew plenty about my Windows OS when I switched to a Powerbook. Windows didn't "confound" or "confuse" me. It's simply an inferior operating system to OSX. Yes, Apple does try to rope in the dumbshits and the computer ignorant but that doesn't mean they don't build amazing fucking computers.

I don't even think it's arguable.

johnnyshape wrote:

galanter wrote:
Macs also, in study after study, come in as costing less than Windows based machines when considering total cost of ownership. .

...but I have severe difficulty in believing this. Can you point to one of these studies? Also, hasn't Apple has bridge-burned two OS in the last ten years, and users have been forced to upgrade if they want to stay with the platform? All three PCs I have bought in the last ten years are still going strong, and each has cost me less than half the Apple equivalent. I checked, each time.

The ones I have in mind have come from a pricey consulting firm called the Gartner Group. They're well known in the trade. Their reports are not public domain, but they get quoted a lot:

http://www.macworld.com/news/2002/06/13/deal/

Also see this long article I've only skimmed...

http://138.202.192.14/~trembath/smon/tco.html

As for operating system upgrades I just happened to come across this article today.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2010942,00.asp

The author notes how hard the pending Vista release is going to be on PC users, and suggests Microsoft should learn from Apple when it comes to operating system transitions. Apple provided the ability to run both old and new systems for a couple years or more, and people migrated to the new good stuff at their own pace. Vista is going to be a hard cut-over, and the relative benefits are questionable.

And by the way, Vista will cost from $199 to $399 depending on how full featured you want it to be. When Max OS X was released it went for $129, and everyone got the full meal deal.

And for folks with multiple machines (and remember that Microsoft will be able to stop most folks from using the same OS installer on multiple machines), they'll give you a price cut of $10-$40 for additional machines.

Apple has a 5-seat family pack for $200...total.

johnnyshape wrote:

galanter wrote:
Finally, the highend Macs, at this point, seem to be cheaper than, for example, similar Dell computers. Apple XServes, especially in media oriented SANs, have been a good buy for quite a while now. Other Apple products have gotten significantly closer in price over the past few years.

...but not cheaper. This stuff has mark-ups of 400%, and you can only get it from one place. You are paying a inflated premium for the platform. Are you actually happy about that? It doesn't annoy you? It does me, when I can do the same job much cheaper.

The high-end Macs are arguably cheaper. The Apple SAN stuff is definitely cheaper...or at least it was a year ago or so when I looked into it. From the mid to low end Macs are a bit more expensive as an initial purchase because they come loaded with software and hardware features. PC's aren't "much" cheaper. The price difference is usually less than sales tax. And again, the total cost of ownership ends up being less.

And Macs have never been twice as expensive as equivalent machines. You must have made some kind of miscalculation.

connor wrote:Scott, you are wrong.

I knew plenty about my Windows OS when I switched to a Powerbook. Windows didn't "confound" or "confuse" me. It's simply an inferior operating system to OSX. Yes, Apple does try to rope in the dumbshits and the computer ignorant but that doesn't mean they don't build amazing fucking computers.

I don't even think it's arguable.

I never said Apple doesn't make a good OS. And in terms of hardware, not long ago they were advertising how they're using Intel (like PC's have been for so many years), so Mac and PC are maybe closer than ever before. Does Apple make their own hard drives, or are they buying them from Toshiba or somebody else whose drives are in PC's just the same?

Hey, maybe Windows is an inferior operating system. I've never written programs for Mac, and I'm not even sure what languages are used to do so, so I wouldn't be able to actually say "YES, this one or that one is certainly better". I have no problem with Windows. I have not experienced OSX to be better. That's about it.

I have a G4 Cube with OSX. I've never left it on for very long (and it's not even set up right now), but a friend borrowed it for a while when he was between computers, and he said that it would overheat and shut itself off if left on for a day or two. So that's awesome. Sounds like they made something "cool" looking and not as functional as it maybe coulda been. I dunno.

--------

MrFood wrote:I used to have a PC. It hung all the time, was slow, nothing that you plugged into it just worked and eventually it ended up crashing so bad I lost a tonne of work.

Oh... and I understood Windows perfectly well thanks.

So why was it hanging all the time then? If you understand Windows, you should have been able to track down the exact problem. Step one might be to go Start->Run->"msconfig" and clean up your startup selections. If you know much about Windows, that's something that you would do the first day you used the computer.

And *why* did nothing that you plugged into it work? That blows my mind. Even back when I was running Win98, this was never the case for me. EVER. NOTHING worked? Or you mean *some things* didn't work?

And with XP, I don't think I've plugged in a single thing that it *didn't* recognize, with one exception, that being a scanner I got about 8 years ago, which was a TWAIN source, and XP dropped support for it. Scanners are all USB now. Meh. Apple is the master of not being backwards compatible, aren't they? Way moreso than PC? So yeah, what was the *reason* your computer was crashing and unable to recognize hardware? If you can't answer that question, maybe you don't understand Windows as well as you could.

If somebody can make my Mac be able to use that Udirol UA-30 to record, that would be great. I found sites on the net where I could download a patch that would maybe make it work. Funny, doesn't that perfectly describe the situation that a Mac nut will tell you makes PC suck? Have to go to the net to download drivers? And with the PC, I don't have to do that, and with the Mac, I do? FOR A FUCKING SOUND CARD?!?!

andteater wrote:scott,

are you suggesting that those of us who have had issue upon issue with our PCs are having those problems because we dont "understand windows?"

you're a moron.

andyk

Give some examples of "issue upon issue". If these issues are the fault of Windows, it might be easy to tell. If they're operator error, or bad programming of an application, or hardware problems, none of that stuff has anything to do with Windows. If they're related to mismanaging threads or processes, or your hard drive is in perfect operational order but your OS is somehow unable to read from it, then yeah, let's blame Windows.

When you were having that issue with Access all those months ago, do you think that's Windows' fault? Cause, y'know, it maybe wasn't.




I hope I never said "Apple makes a shit product". I don't think I did.

What I was trying to say is that their marketing is disgusting. Those young hipster Mac versus old loser-guy PC commercials are such bullshit. The PC is like "oh, it'll be a long time before you can even use me, parts of me are still in another box", and the Mac is like "okay, well I'm all ready to go, I think maybe I'll surf the net and edit some video".

A mac can surf the net, out of the box? It knows my ISP's DNS server addresses? It knows my user name and password?!?! WOW!!!! If that's true, then yeah, much different than a Windows machine where all you have to do is type in your ISP info and you're all set. I set up a wireless network at my old apartment that provided broadband to my PC's and my roommate's brand new Mac. Was any computer easier to set up than the others? Um, no. Same info required in each case. Surf the net out of the box, you Mac! Do it! I wanna see you know all the relevant ISP info, the stuff I had to type into my roomate's Mac for the internet to work. SAME AS A PC.

Anybody who's bought a PC and a Mac should know that this advertising is a load of crap. It is false advertising. If you buy a Mac, you somehow don't have to hook up a monitor or mouse or keyboard or printer or your configure your DSL? I've owned and/or set up several desktop PC's and several PC laptops, and none of them were some crazy ordeal like that commerical is trying to represent, and I would go so far as to say they were *exactly* as difficult to unbox and plug in as my Mac Cube is. A DB15 monitor cable plugs into the 15-pin jack, mice and keyboards plug into a USB port, they are the same fucking thing.

So yeah, pretty much lying to sell people on the ancient addage "Mac is easier to use". It's still bullshit today, and is probably actually more bullshit than it was back in the days of Win95 and Win98.

If you go to Best Buy and buy a Sony laptop running XP, you can take it home, turn the power on, hook up your digital video camera and be editing video in no time. The laptop I'm typing on right now, which is almost 5 years old, came with video editing software installed on it. 5 years ago, it came with video editing software installed on it. Hey Apple, fuck you and your super-pervasive commercials which are selling your product using patently false information about the nature of Windows machines! It wasn't even true 5 years ago, and it certainly isn't true today. MAKE MY USB SOUND CARD WORK, MAC!!

Oh and Mac is better with foreign languages than PC is? The commercial where the Mac guy is speaking fluently in some foreign language, and the PC guy is speaking crappy-sounding Spanish? Windows doesn't have well-implemented foreign language capabilities? REALLY?!?!

So yeah, my point wasn't that Apple doesn't make a good product. It's that they're evil marketing bastards, and always have been. I find their marketing to be quite sinister.

I loved my Apple IIgs so much that I've been looking on eBay for a screamin deal on one. They sell for as cheap as $40 sometimes, for a complete system. That's the computer that Apple broke some good ground with, and then abandoned almost immediately, fucking their customers, so they could exclusively do the Mac thing. They've been assholes for at least 17 years that I know of.

They make a fine machine, a fine OS, all that. FINE. Just maybe stop with the aggressive marketing full of lies. Okay?

All Advertising=Lies

Not limited to Apple.

I use Mac because that's what I learned komputers on, that and a Commodore 64. I buy 'em used. They work great for my purposes. My PCs always did shit and the Macs have been virtually problem-free. I'm not a fanatic, just a user.

scott wrote:....a lot of crazy stuff.

Scott! SCOTT!! Count to three, buddy. Take a deep breath. Hold.... hold... now let it out slowly. How are you feeling? Wanna sit for a bit? How about a Fresca?

I worry about you sometimes. I KNOW in real life you are not a crazy person. I KNOW it! I know you in real life. Not crazy. Nice guy... Not crazy guy.

Are you feeling better? Yeah, I like Fresca too. Very grapefruit-y.... Me? Nah! Go ahead. It's all yours. Drink up, friend.

Sheep: Apple Fanatics

Double post. Read next one.

galanter wrote:
The ones I have in mind have come from a pricey consulting firm called the Gartner Group. They're well known in the trade. Their reports are not public domain, but they get quoted a lot:

http://www.macworld.com/news/2002/06/13/deal/

Also see this long article I've only skimmed...

http://138.202.192.14/~trembath/smon/tco.html

As for operating system upgrades I just happened to come across this article today.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2010942,00.asp

Sorry, but you've quoted a single IT installation in one university - not business or home users. That's not 'study after study', or reality. I have never spent 14 minutes a day figuring out Windows problems. Honestly, certainly such the introduction of XP, I can't remember having a single real problem. Certainly not anything day to day, or even adding up to any significant amount of time. Nor have I ever met anyone else who has. This is the stuff of Mac-deluded fantasists. And where is this 'total cost of ownership' stuff you lord about? Do you really, deep down believe that a $1000 PC bundle will end up costing more than a $2000 Mac bundle? Really? Again, with this fantasy of 'deluded drones' waiting to be released from the yoke. Arrogant nonsense.

Have you even noticed that all the publications you have quoted are not exactly 'Mac unfriendly? Surely if this was such a planetwide problem, this sort of information would be easily available in the 'public domain'? Maybe even some newspapers? Something vaguely objective?
It's a bit like those political discussions where people quote different websites, each leaning vastly toward a particular field. You seem to be searching desperately for something to prop up your argument. I don't need to, because I or anyone else can merely look at any computer dealer in the entire world. Neither you or any other person has ever answered my question about why you deserve to pay an even bigger markup to a giant, protectionist, litigious corporation. Nothing punk rock there.

Do you really think that the vast armies of IT managers worldwide are actually deluded fools who gladly swallow Microsoft's expensive bullshit and ignore the pure cheap white light from Apple? Merely to keep their jobs? All of them? Every IT person I have ever met usually really likes Apple systems, but cannot afford to implement them, based on a competing Wintel/Linux model.

Why are you continuing to ram home this ludicrous point about price? Why? It's a rock solid argument about the OS, design, quality, all that. Why do you continue to maintain this laughable garbage that they are in some way cheaper? Have you actually seen how cheap PCs are these days? Why are you doing this? I am digging in on this point because I think you are deluding yourself here. Really.

galanter wrote:

And Macs have never been twice as expensive as equivalent machines. You must have made some kind of miscalculation.

Yes they ARE. I added up the figures, EACH TIME I bought a machine, over the last ten years. Fuck, was I even handedly careful. Equivalent clock speeds, peripherals, software, everything. I check my facts out of self-interest, not annoying other computer users. You forget, I made a deliberate decision to move away from Apple, but not necessarily a permanent one. Have you actually seen how cheap PCs are these days? You probably haven't seen the even more gouging prices charged in the UK for Apple gear; carried to the extreme with iTunes charging, accounting for the exchange rate, nearly double the US charge for a single song?

Questions, questions, lots of questions. But the ones I really want the answers to are: Why are you shilling for this company? Why are you swallowing all this bullshit? Why are you so keen on protecting the myth of Apple?
As I said in the first place, that's actually the thing I find weird.

johnnyshape wrote:

galanter wrote:
The ones I have in mind have come from a pricey consulting firm called the Gartner Group. They're well known in the trade. Their reports are not public domain, but they get quoted a lot:

http://www.macworld.com/news/2002/06/13/deal/

Also see this long article I've only skimmed...

http://138.202.192.14/~trembath/smon/tco.html

As for operating system upgrades I just happened to come across this article today.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2010942,00.asp

Sorry, but you've quoted a single IT installation in one university - not business or home users. That's not 'study after study', or reality. I have never spent 14 minutes a day figuring out Windows problems. Honestly, certainly such the introduction of XP, I can't remember having a single real problem. Certainly not anything day to day, or even adding up to any significant amount of time. Nor have I ever met anyone else who has. This is the stuff of Mac-deluded fantasists. And where is this 'total cost of ownership' stuff you lord about? Do you really, deep down believe that a $1000 PC bundle will end up costing more than a $2000 Mac bundle? Really? Again, with this fantasy of 'deluded drones' waiting to be released from the yoke. Arrogant nonsense.

Have you even noticed that all the publications you have quoted are not exactly 'Mac unfriendly? Surely if this was such a planetwide problem, this sort of information would be easily available in the 'public domain'? Maybe even some newspapers? Something vaguely objective?

The Gartner Group is not some ad hoc group of Mac fanatics. It's a very large well respected technology consulting group that covers all manner of IT issues. Like all consulting firms they are not perfect. But they are indeed well known and respected, and if you knew more about the IT field you would know that and you wouldn't dismiss them as being Mac fanatics. They don't make money by being fanatics. They make money by offering good objective reports.

Like I said, their reports are not public domaiin. People pay big bucks for them. The summary article I noted happened to be in a Mac publication because that's what I could quickly google. It is only one of the studies I've seen. If you're really more interested in knowing what these studies say than winning an argument, you can do your own research and find the other studies out there.

One place to start is the other link which in turn has links and numerous citations re: the advantages of Macs.

I also note you've said nothing about the third link which is a more or less PC analyst talking about how easy Mac OS transitions have been, and how the pending Microsoft Vista transition is going to be so much more difficult and expensive.

My personal experience includes interactions with 1000's of people in dozens of locations at all levels of sophistication, as well as broad exposure to IT publications and technology conferences. I first started programming in 1972, well before there were any personal computers at all. I say this to make the point that I'm not some mindless fan, nor am I easily mislead when it comes to computing products.

To be fair I should note that my pricing comments were assuming US pricing. Macs in the UK, to the extent that I've been able to follow overseas pricing, have been a bit more expensive. But still not twice as expensive as PCs. It should be easy for you to detail a counter example if it is as you say. Feel free.

I'm glad your experience with Windows has been so positive. It doesn't bother me in the least if you keep using PC's.