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Posted: **Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:06 pm**

Improvisation is a skill. It's a very specific skill that requires some degree of technical ability and some amount of playing experience to do well, in addition to basic musicianship and familiarity with one's instrument. You have to have the facility to play a variety of musical figures without practicing beforehand, and you also have to have a bit of a repertoire to draw from, or else you're going to end up playing the same few phrases over and over again. Even more importantly, it requires a lot of imagination and creativity, the courage to go out on a limb and free yourself to play whatever you feel the music is asking for at every possible moment. It also requires the player to listen to what everyone else is doing and anticipate where they might be heading at any given moment.

This is not a skill that can be "taught" in school. It can only be encouraged along with a freedom of expression. It can only be accomplished by practicing with other musicians. Playing along with a scored piece or with prerecorded music can help to an extent, but real improv skill is only gained by practicing improvisational playing with other musicians on a regular basis.

Let me give an example:

A juggler might have a great familiarity with throwing and catching balls, might be well-trained in a wide array of techniques, might able to perform some really unusual and beautiful routines and put on a fascinating show. He may be able to perform complicated routines in collaboration in a group with other jugglers. He may have studied juggling for years at one of the nation's premiere clown colleges. He may be a multi-instrumentalist, capable of juggling a variety of objects as well as balls, even dangerous items. He could be at the top of his field, a creative artist who composes his own routines and performs them for the delight of large audiences in one of the world's top circuses.

But will all those skills and credentials qualify him for the position of shortstop on a major league baseball team?

There's a lot of overlap in the technical skillsets required both to juggle and to play baseball. Many of the same basic skills are required for both, like hand-eye coordination, depth perception, balance, throwing and catching skills, etc. Both fields of endeavor are concerned with balls and oblong items, ie. bats or juggling pins. But baseball requires some specific skills that jugglers don't necessarily have, and juggling requires certain specific skills that baseball players don't necessarily have.

Posted: **Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:01 pm**

tocharian wrote:
Dr. O' Nothing wrote:Imagine if you will Tocharian's Message Board....

A World in which C/NC, Crap/Not Crap is replaced by C/NC, Camp/Not Camp.

An example...

Band: Mission of Burma

'Oh Roger, those Ear Protectors are so Kitchy': CAMP
'Where's the affectation, gentlemen? BOR-RING!: NOT-CAMP

Dr. O'Nothing: I weighed in on what camp was a few pages back because some posters where discussing the definition. Why don't you go play beer pong or something.

ERawk: I'm not sure I want to get into a long discussion about the extent to which a cadenza is rehearsed (it varies) or the potential for embellishment in piece of chamber music (varies also--more than just "trills"). I will say, though, that you'd be hard pressed to find a hot-shot classical musician who can't improvise something mean. They have the musicality, theoretical and technical chops to do it. Are rock musicians' improvisational skills generally comparable to jazz musicians'? I'm not quite sure what this is all about.

Anyway, I keep waiting for someone to post a stunning defense of rock as art. Anyone...

Why are you here?

Posted: **Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:12 pm**

warmowski wrote:
tocharian wrote:Three of those times involved a rock or jazz soundtrack. I have news for you. While fine people, these musicians were the least improvisationally inclined or gifted I ever worked with in or out of a studio. They were avowed white-knuckled sheet-clingers. I will never forget the deer-in-the-headlights look we got from them when simple discussion of the simple score took place outside of the visual language of the manuscript.

Well yeah. If you're hired to play a score and there are problems with the score then there are going to be problems with recording that score. Construction workers don't improvise when there are problems with the blueprint... they go back to the architect and engineer. I think it depends on what the musicians' understanding of what they'd been hired to do is, but no, classical musicians aren't professional improvisers like jazz musicians. And?

I still don't understand what the point of this is. So jazz musicians can improvise. Rock musicians can "jam". Some classically trained musicians learn more about composition than others.

So?

Posted: **Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:15 pm**

simmo wrote:Rock is a form of music.

Music is a form of art.

Therefore, rock is a form of art.

x = y;

y = z;

->

x = z.

Lame. Still waiting.

Posted: **Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:44 pm**

tocharian wrote:
simmo wrote:Rock is a form of music.

Music is a form of art.

Therefore, rock is a form of art.

x = y;

y = z;

->

x = z.

Lame. Still waiting.

It's correct though.

Rather than asking the 'is it art question?', a better question is 'is it good art?'

Posted: **Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:46 pm**

tocharian wrote:Lame. Still waiting.

For what? You're clearly not open to being wrong in your preconceptions, even those received from Susan Sontag.

Posted: **Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:54 pm**

tocharian wrote:
warmowski wrote:
tocharian wrote:Three of those times involved a rock or jazz soundtrack. I have news for you. While fine people, these musicians were the least improvisationally inclined or gifted I ever worked with in or out of a studio. They were avowed white-knuckled sheet-clingers. I will never forget the deer-in-the-headlights look we got from them when simple discussion of the simple score took place outside of the visual language of the manuscript.

Well yeah. If you're hired to play a score and there are problems with the score then there are going to be problems with recording that score. Construction workers don't improvise when there are problems with the blueprint... they go back to the architect and engineer. I think it depends on what the musicians' understanding of what they'd been hired to do is, but no, classical musicians aren't professional improvisers like jazz musicians. And?

I still don't understand what the point of this is. So jazz musicians can improvise. Rock musicians can "jam". Some classically trained musicians learn more about composition than others.

So?

tocharian wrote:I will say, though, that you'd be hard pressed to find a hot-shot classical musician who can't improvise something mean. They have the musicality, theoretical and technical chops to do it. Are rock musicians' improvisational skills generally comparable to jazz musicians'? I'm not quite sure what this is all about.

mean2
[meen] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective, -er, -est.
1. offensive, selfish, or unaccommodating; nasty; malicious: a mean remark; He gets mean when he doesn't get his way.
2. small-minded or ignoble: mean motives.
3. penurious, stingy, or miserly: a person who is mean about money.
4. inferior in grade, quality, or character: no mean reward.
5. low in status, rank, or dignity: mean servitors.
6. of little importance or consequence: mean little details.
7. unimposing or shabby: a mean abode.
8. small, humiliated, or ashamed: You should feel mean for being so stingy.
9. Informal. in poor physical condition.
10. troublesome or vicious; bad-tempered: a mean old horse.

Anyway. I played with a violin player for years. He was awesome. He was a great guy, and very very brilliant in both analysis of compositions (his grad thesis was something like a study in Chopin's lack of skill in writing for orchestras, and was very well received) and his own stuff. But he couldn't just 'wing it' in rock terms. I would say "Okay, we're gonna have a break here, you're gonna play the violin...so it sounds like a violin in a pop song, over blah chord for 4 bars, bleg chord for 2 and blam chord for 2. Just wing it!" He would have SO MUCH TROUBLE. I learned quickly I'd have to write him actual melodies and stuff, and when I did he would often take those and make them better - holding a note a little longer, or playing a line and then playing right after that line up a third or fourth, neat stuff. But he couldn't just 'wing it'!

Posted: **Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:04 pm**

simmo wrote:
Colonel Panic wrote:"Rock" = a genre (subset) of "music";
"Music" = a form (subset) of "art";
Therefore, "rock" = "art".

Rock is a form of music.

Music is a form of art.

therefore, rock is a form of art.

x = y;

y = z;

->

x = z.

Actually, you're right. My notation is incorrect.

"Rock" is not absolutely equal ("=") to "Art" (some art is not rock). "Rock" is a genre, or subset ("⊆") of "Music". Likewise, Music is not absolutely equal to "Art" (some art is not music). "Music" is a form, or subset ("⊆") of "Art".

The proper way to express it would have been:

Code: Select all

Rock ⊆ Music;

Music ⊆ Art;

therefore: Rock ⊆ Art.

or:

Code: Select all

Rock ⊆ Music ⊆ Art

Thanks simmo, for calling out my error.

Rock is art by definition. It is not an opinion.

If the definition of "art" is "human manipulation of the physical world for the purpose of expressing emotions and/or affecting the sense of beauty in other human beings", then music is inclusive in that definition and rock, being a genre of music, is also included.

Whether it's "good" or "bad" art is subjective and arguable, whether it falls into the categories of "camp" or "kitsch" even more so. But unless you're operating by some alternative definition of "art", then rock is indeed art.

"Rock is not art," pfffft. You want to talk about lame? That elitist snobbery is so mid-20th Century cultural relativist.

Get with the program, tocharian!

Posted: **Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:15 pm**

tocharian wrote:
Well yeah. If you're hired to play a score and there are problems with the score then there are going to be problems with recording that score.

No, there were no "problems with the score" at all -- at least for the non-orchestral people.

I felt the problem was that we were there to record music being played, but the orchestra people instead of playing music turned in a kind of artless, earless, disengaged notation-staring exercise that resulted in only pitches and tones.

And believe me, being brought up on listening to classical music myself, I was pretty surprised by the whole thing, as counter-intuitive as it first appeared to me. I thought: they train forever, but come off kind of like robots? Weirded me out until the full implication of they train forever sank in: they train forever to execute instructions.

tocharian wrote:Construction workers don't improvise when there are problems with the blueprint... they go back to the architect and engineer.

Well, to take your analogy (which amusingly casts classical musicians as pure craftspeople) these "problems with the blueprint" amounted to failing to specify in which direction gravity pulls, or whether or not to use scaffolding to work on the ceiling.

When the copyist has to, for example, run around and pencil in whole notes four times on two blank bars that had F# written above them, I'm not going to call that a problem with the score. Not when everyone who doesn't have a violin in their hand knows what's going on.

tocharian wrote:I think it depends on what the musicians' understanding of what they'd been hired to do is, but no, classical musicians aren't professional improvisers like jazz musicians. And?

...and rock and jazz is commonly beyond classical musicians' understanding - particularly when they are called upon to play it. Which is a poor position to have when pursuing an argument that rock is artless but classical is not. Forgive me if I have your argument wrong.

-r

Posted: **Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:51 pm**

syntaxfree07 wrote:Why are you here?

To gang up on someone who has different ideas about music from Steve Albini whenever he throws a little tantrum about something.

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