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I think this is less and less a left problem and something that polarisation is causing across the spectrum. I am friends with a few rightwingers (sane, fiscal conservative types) and they’re becoming much more demonstrative in their politics. I’m not sure where this all goes but social media is definitely the cause.

Gramsci wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 3:38 pm I think this is less and less a left problem and something that polarisation is causing across the spectrum. I am friends with a few rightwingers (sane, fiscal conservative types) and they’re becoming much more demonstrative in their politics. I’m not sure where this all goes but social media is definitely the cause.

Sadly Gramsci, it's the perennial problem of the left. The overwhelming majority will do the bare minimum, then insist the best possible life is a right and not a privilege. Without the daily graft, the good get steamrollered.

Oh without a doubt the left are appalling at factionalism and spiralling down doctrinal and identity rabbit holes with zero eye on the long game. I’m just see that kind of self pigeon holing spreading across the political spectrum. Primarily driven by social media.

Gramsci wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 5:09 am Oh without a doubt the left are appalling at factionalism and spiralling down doctrinal and identity rabbit holes with zero eye on the long game. I’m just see that kind of self pigeon holing spreading across the political spectrum. Primarily driven by social media.

I don't mean that Gramsci, as much as pure fucking laziness.

A_Man_Who_Tries wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 5:43 am

Gramsci wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 5:09 am Oh without a doubt the left are appalling at factionalism and spiralling down doctrinal and identity rabbit holes with zero eye on the long game. I’m just see that kind of self pigeon holing spreading across the political spectrum. Primarily driven by social media.

I don't mean that Gramsci, as much as pure fucking laziness.

There’s definitely that. Most people think about politics exactly zero times per day. I don’t hold that against anyone. The system is designed to minimise participation to occasion voting. I think most people have no idea what anything else even looks like since the deindustrialisation of the 80s. There’s little room in people’s lives for class based community so it descends into identity. Which in my opinion creates unnecessary differences and factionalism compared a broad intersectional movement based on foundation of economic class.

On topic Trump and anti-Trumpism is the perfect avatar of this.

Identity politics triggers me. It's a ploy for radical leftists to not unpack their racism.

rsmurphy wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:29 am Identity politics triggers me. It's a ploy for radical leftists to not unpack their racism.

This is really interesting to me and I don't think I fully understand it. Can you say more about this?

losthighway wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:09 am This is really interesting to me and I don't think I fully understand it. Can you say more about this?

The American government and/or America has never substantially accounted for, explained, apologized, and made reparations for chattel slavery, Jim Crow, and the destruction of black families via the criminal justice system. Most, if not all of our faults rests on these issues. Framing this as I believe some on the far left do as identity politics keeps it on the back burner so as to dismantle other systems first, and the racial issues will work themselves out. It's a way of not centering black America in the conversation when it needs to be. And I think this is done partly out of the fear and discomfort with internal dialogues about race.

rsmurphy wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:57 am

losthighway wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:09 am This is really interesting to me and I don't think I fully understand it. Can you say more about this?

The American government and/or America has never substantially accounted for, explained, apologized, and made reparations for chattel slavery, Jim Crow, and the destruction of black families via the criminal justice system. Most, if not all of our faults rests on these issues. Framing this as I believe some on the far left do as identity politics keeps it on the back burner so as to dismantle other systems first, and the racial issues will work themselves out. It's a way of not centering black America in the conversation when it needs to be. And I think this is done partly out of the fear and discomfort with internal dialogues about race.

Too fucking right.

rsmurphy wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:57 am

losthighway wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:09 am This is really interesting to me and I don't think I fully understand it. Can you say more about this?

The American government and/or America has never substantially accounted for, explained, apologized, and made reparations for chattel slavery, Jim Crow, and the destruction of black families via the criminal justice system. Most, if not all of our faults rests on these issues. Framing this as I believe some on the far left do as identity politics keeps it on the back burner so as to dismantle other systems first, and the racial issues will work themselves out. It's a way of not centering black America in the conversation when it needs to be. And I think this is done partly out of the fear and discomfort with internal dialogues about race.

Thank you. I'm getting there. Clearly slavery and its aftermath are the original sin of our American mythology. The accounting for it has been tragically insufficient. I don't see what sane person could argue with you on that.

The other half of your point gets into identity politics, and how they work, or don't work at addressing injustice. I think of the issues you brought up as central to identity politics. Is it that they're clouded by too many other issues? Is it merely that the popular American left (i.e. garden variety "liberals") have eased up on them as talking points to keep from losing votes in a culture war?

I know I've made comments on here about addressing institutional racism through measures that focus on poverty overall instead of a race centered policy. Is that kind of thinking you're bristling at (I take zero offense if so)?