...There is center for autistic people in Zagreb,Croatia,Europe.
There is a club where they organize gigs (noise,rock,free...you name it).
Everything from the door goes for that center.
If anybody tours Europe and is willing to help them, drop me an e-mail.

...back to the subject.
Schnapps, I WAS on that concert (the green coat, Paradiso) and furthermore, I do own that give away 7" wich was not give away that very moment.
I remember I saw mics placed on each side of the stage, and I knew it was recorded. There was a guy (bass player from "Very expensive porno movie") shouting in croatian "UA, PEDERI" wich means "Buu, faggots".
I was distracted way more by his rudeness then by those mics, but I can say that this 7" inch did not capture the atmosphere on that gig.
It was a blast, and IMHO broken strings where just the thing that connected this gig to reality...
Anyway, I dislike bootlegs, photos and video since they are always representing stuff in different way then I remember...I can never relate to those.

lunar wrote:
(bass player from "Very expensive porno movie")

That's a great band name, I need to remember that one.

PEDERI

Thanks for that one, too.

Anyway, I dislike bootlegs, photos and video since they are always representing stuff in different way then I remember...I can never relate to those.

I think this is exactly right. I like studio outtakes, but live bootlegs miss the point entirely. Like a reality show, it's an artificial construct from a manufactured viewpoint. Sometimes, you just have to resign yourself to the fact that you missed a show. Life goes on, somehow.[/b]

Snorlax wrote:Your 2 years of working with a small percentage of a much larger group of people doesn't give you nearly as much experience as you'd like to think you have

Alright.
First of all, allow me to bring your attention to two things:

first, that i qualified what i said by saying that "out of all the ones i've met, observed, and researched, i have yet to see one that rocks back and forth like steve." there are obviously children that i have not seen. but out of MY experience, and i'm not talking about all the experience of others, this IS the case. it's not as if i'm merely spouting shit. so plainly, YOU have no business telling me to "shut up", or do anything else. if you want to get demanding, well then, you can stick your tongue up my ass, if i may borrow from steve. until YOUR knowledge of the subject surpasses mine, i won't invite any further instruction from you.

now, i want you to notice that the description of autistic people that you have taken the time to look for--albeit AFTER your original, UNINFORMED comparison was made--also has a qualifier in it, as well. read your own post again: "...and MAY include hand-flapping, finger-snapping, rocking,..." [emphasis mine]. why is that qualifier there? as you say, this is a society comprised of 20,000 members, who have been in existence for 35 years, and surely THEY are smart enough to know all the symptoms, right? and surely they have smartly budgeted for a lawyer, who can advise them of all the grammatical loopholes they can use to get them out of any trouble that may arise which they are, at any point, either directly, or indirectly involved in? in any case, the autistic spectrum has a wide variety of disorders, and therefore has an even larger variety of symptoms, even ones that are not included in the DSM-IV official guidelines for diagnosis. but the ASA also gets larger amounts of monetary aid for every child that they're helping, thus it's more helpful to them to list the widest amount of symptoms possible. i'm not trying to dismiss what they do, and how much they help people with autism--but at the same time, a lot of the materials regarding potential "cures" for autism that i've gotten from the ASA have been total bunk. autism is a disorder which is currently incurable, and completely mystifying. it is heartbreaking to me when parents of children who suffer from this get all excited over "lactose-free diets" and similar bullshit, and then are surprised when it doesn't work, because their fucking LIVES are wrapped up in their children and what's wrong with them, that they'll do anything. but i digress.

i don't care about what the fuck you say in your posts. so your sarcastic suggestion of adding "footnotes" can suck my cock. you can say what you want, uncensored and unapologised for, and that in itself is the way it's supposed to be. similarly, i can do the same. the fact still remains, however, that you made a stupid blunder that was pegged by someone smarter than you ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT and you got called on it. if i said something like, "microphones don't have capsules, they have capstans", well, then, i'm certainly hoping that someone would rip me a new asshole for being such a profoundly public idiot. maybe i could have pointed out what i said a bit more tactfully, but i'm not going to shroud what i have to say in niceties. what's the point? i'm telling you that based on my experience, you are wrong. based on someone else's experience, maybe you're not wrong. but i can't really speak for someone else's experience, can i?

and now, second: i notice that you, too, used a qualifier in saying that he's rocking "like" he's autistic. well, as far as i'm concerned, no, he's not. and beyond that, drawing a comparison between steve and an autistic person is just the most idiotic thing i can think of. i'm not steve's best pal or anything, but i know him well enough, and have been around him enough times to be annoyed as hell by what you said. your disturbing display of all that total fan-boy knowledge was annoying enough, but your dumb comparison was just more than i was willing to tolerate. i don't care what the fuck you call anybody, including steve. but likening him to an autistic person? if anyone has attention deficit disorder, it's you, snorlax, for not paying attention enough to life while your shellac records are playing at home. there are other things to fixate upon. go find some.

regards,
jet.

sorry about that, andrew--er, i mean, swifty--

the first point was rather long-running and included a couple of tangents.
hope this clears things up.

regards,
jet.

p.s. "swifty swifterson" is the funniest shit i've ever heard.

I like studio outtakes too, but then I think that they're much more morally wrong anyway. Unless they are officially released, nobody except the band is ever supposed to hear those studio outtakes. At least a taped live show was performed in front of the general public at one point.

You brought up an interesting point- I dislike photography as well. I feel that if something is worth remembering, no photos would be necessary to remember it, or in any case, your main source of memory should not rely on photographs. But, with live shows it's different. For example here I'm going to use Neutral Milk Hotel's live stuff. Some of you might have heard of them, they're a relatively popular indie band. I have some live bootlegs from this band that are very good. I'm not going to say, "It's not as good as being there would have been, so I'm not even going to bother." I'm going to say, "This is really good music, and although I wasn't there, at least I get to hear these songs that I would NEVER have been able to hear under any other circumstances." Really, when it comes down to it, I couldn't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut if a live bootleg misses the point of a live show. Live bootlegs are bootlegs, and shows are shows. Some good shows make good bootlegs, some good shows make bad bootlegs, some bad shows make bad bootlegs. It's completely irrelevant. If it's worth listening to, it's worth listening to, no matter how it was recorded. If you have your head stuck so far up your ass about how the music you're listening to was obtained, you're really missing out.

I mean, would any of you turn down the opportunity to hear a bootleg of that new Shellac song live? Even if it was terrible quality, I'd jump at the chance, because although Shellac has fantastic production, they also know how to write good songs. If I can hear the melody and the band's interactions, that's good enough for me.

couldn't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut

Thank you for using one of my favourite phrases, by the way. never fails to raise a chuckle.

As far as live bootlegs, I guess I would have to backtrack just a teensy bit on my original thoughts. Some live boots stand alone as far as a listenable piece of "product", for lack of a better term. I'm thinking right now of a This Heat tape my friend Chad played me that was incredible. In my original post, I was imagining all the pointless live boots of bands that sound like shittier versions of the studio albums. I used to sell these at a record store and I was amazed at a) how terrible they were and b) how expensive they could be and people would still buy them. Somewhere in this debate is a question about the ability of an artist to decide what should and should not be heard (i.e. studio outtakes) but I'm not going to be the one who starts that one.

However, I'm also not going to be the one that puts his head up his own ass.

Years ago when I was in a record store, I saw an LP copy of Shellac, live in Tokyo. I bought it, and I haven't listened to it since, it's just not nearly as interesting as the albums are. I guess it would have more meaning if I was at the show.

I took pictures when Shellac and Silkworm played here, and I'm glad I did. Taking photographs didn't distract my attention of the show nearly as much as trying to hide a recorder would have. Occaisionally I'll look at the photos, and it sums up my memories of the show nicely. Besides, I'd much rather spend two minutes looking at photos, than an hour and a half listening to microcassette audio.

I remember coming across several websites over the years that showcase these massive collections of different bands bootlegs. What's the point of collecting all of these? Are you ever going to listen to them? I have a hard enough time listening to each one of my records once in a year, and I don't have that many, really.

Well, the real problem cannot be avoided by making everything relative...
People who are into bootlegs will continue to do their best to collect them and make them...I will continue to dislike them, since they are all thieves and what they do is crap.
I hope your mini disk explodes in your pocket, preferably near to your genitals.

Jet-

I never claimed that you were "spouting shit". I believe you when you
say that none of the autistic people you've met in your experience "rock". However, that's not the issue! The issue is, it doesn't mean that there are not some out there that -do-. Just because -you- don't have first hand experience with any "rockers" doesn't mean they absolutely don't exist, therefore you can't say I'm "wrong" when they are indeed out there, no matter in what small percentage. You somewhat made this point yourself when you said "there are obviously children that i have not seen". Well gee, I think it's probably safe to say that since some people say the one(s) they know (who you haven't seen) "rock", then it's "obvious" that it's true some do! You must live in some fucked up little microcosm where nothing is true unless you have "experienced" it. Otherwise, you wouldn't have also said:

"i'm telling you that based on my experience, you are wrong. based on someone else's experience, maybe you're not wrong. but i can't really speak for someone else's experience, can i?".

That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Seriously. It's all quite simple, really. Even my -lack- of experience with the autistic doesn't matter. I don't need to have experience with them to prove my point, or to know that some of them "rock". Just like I don't have to have ever been in outer space to know that people float. As far as my quote from the site I posted... it wasn't "luck" that I found it after the fact. It's called being resourceful. I wanted to show you that there are people out there who -can- say for a -fact- that their autistic child, brother, etc. "rocks" (who'd be agreeing with me right now because of -their- experience) and they FAR outnumber you, putting you in -no- position to say I'm "wrong", because many more people can say I'm -right-. Your attempt at trying to disarm the one (of many) statement(s) I found by bringing up technicalities about lawyers and loopholes... please. What do I have to do, round some "rockers" up, stick them in the back of a pickup truck, drive them to you and let you "experience" them? For the third time... your inexperience with them doesn't mean they don't exist.

It seems to me that your rant was more about you wanting to get in to a pissing contest about who's more knowledgable on the subject of autism. YOU ARE! YOU ARE! YOU ARE! We are all quite aware of that now, thank you. The proof is in the pudding when you said "... you made a stupid blunder that was pegged by someone smarter than you ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT and you got called on it." Alright Mr. "smarter than (me)"... Why "call" me on it if you "don't care what (I) say in (my) posts"? Because obviously you have some need to make it known that you think you're smarter than I am, or prove that you are more knowledgable on the subject by flexing your proverbial muscles here. We're impressed.

You know... some grandfathers rock back and forth in their rocking chairs, some sit still in theirs. I'm sure if I would have said "rock back and forth like a grandpa in a rocking chair" none of the grandchildren on this board would have spouted off about how grandfathers -don't- rock back and forth, pointing out that -they- have two(!) grandfathers that own rocking chairs, and in their experience with grandfathers, they have never seen them rock back and forth, "proving" that I am 100% wrong and "stupid" in making the "uneducated" statement "rocking like a grandparent", being that both my grandfathers were dead before I was born (if they somehow knew this information without being told.. kinda like you "knew" that I've never had any experience with autistic children) and thus have no experience with grandfathers. Then again, maybe you have two grandfathers...

Speaking about not caring... I honestly don't care that you were "offended" by the flippant comment I made in the first place. That's not my problem, it's all yours, Mr. Sensitive. Maybe this all started because you're just too thick to understand that the comment was not a generalized one. Notice that I didn't say "rocking back and forth like EVERY SINGLE PERSON WITH AUTISM DOES"? I agree, -that- would have been an erroneous, uneducated statement.

So, I think it's pretty clear that you're the only "Public Idiot" here, seeing as how your own quotes more than prove it. For instance (thanks for all the material by the way!!!!!) you say in your closing paragraph "drawing a comparison between steve and an autistic person is just the most idiotic thing i can think of. i'm not steve's best pal or anything, but i know him well enough, and have been around him enough times to BE ANNOYED AS HELL BY WHAT YOU SAID" and then in the same paragraph you bring it on home with "i don't care what the fuck you call anybody, including steve."

You are, my special little friend... a retard.


Oh, and yeah... I'm a real "scary fan-boy" for knowing about every record a band with a handfull of releases has released. Maybe if we were talking about Hawkwind, yeah, I'd definitely be scary.... but I'm sure more than half the people on this board know the same things I do, so that info wasn't mentioned to try and impress anyone because it wouldn't have anyway. It was used because it was the only info that could have been used in the context they were used in, where nothing else possibly could have been. Nice try at another cheap shot though. I won't make any about you saying you "know Steve well enough". No one here is impressed with these kinds of things...

*hugs*

well, snorlax,

you can call me names, if you wish--it's clear that you have no personal standards when it comes to that. oh, well. i'll give you $20 if you can find one place where i was criticising you as a person, instead of just criticising your dumb ideas.

i suppose you got the gist of what i was saying about experience, etc. perfectly, because you spewed it all back out as an argument against me.

well, "Mr. Sensitive" is really tired of listening to you being defensive. so, i'm sorry to rain on your little rainbow-pride parade, but i'm not going to spar with you any longer; i feel like my point has been made, and stands.

i think it's amusing, though, that you took one of my last statements as if i was using steve as "cred" or something. most people on this board know steve, because they've recorded with him, or worked with him in some context. (i just manicure his nails.) but if you feel like there's some elite club, or something, well then give a call!! they'd be happy to speak with you about membership dues and dress code; everyone at electrical is very friendly.

but if you ever actually do that, then i certainly hope you're not as dismissive of him then as you are here, out of the sake of mere respect.

goodbye, snorlax. go wenk off and loosen up, and i'll do the same.

regards,
jet, aka Mr. "smarter than (me)".